Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

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Jorge Oliveira
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Fri Feb 24, 2017 7:59 pm

Hi fellow players:

Here is another rendition of Sor's Opus 60 #4. I had already posted a record of this little piece with a tempo rounding the 1/4 = 65 bpm but I wanted to try to play it even slower to see if I could extract more "drama" out of it 8) (as I believe a slower tempo would). This this time I played it at around 1/4 = 60 bpm and used the apoyando technique to pluck the strings. I'm posting the two versions for you to tell me which one you like more... :)
Opus 60 #4 (V2).wma
Fernando Sor, Opus 60 #4 (V3, apoyado).wma
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Last edited by Jorge Oliveira on Sat Feb 25, 2017 11:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Aria A558, 655 mm, Cedar, 1987, Nagoya, Japan
Hermanos Camps Master, 650 mm, Cedar, 2014 (Nº 3), Spain

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MattPM
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by MattPM » Sat Feb 25, 2017 2:04 pm

Nice clean articulate playing Jorge - I preferred the apoyando version as it gave the melody more emphasis.

This week I've focussed on #16 which despite being at an "Andantino" tempo is fairly unforgiving - bum notes stick out like a sore thumb :oops:. Other parts which appear intimidating at first are the legato flurries in bar 38 and 46, but a bit of repetitive practice of each bar reveals they aren't too difficult and follow under the fingers quite nicely (getting them in time is the greater challenge). Also of note is this is the first study I've addressed so far in Op60 where a note appears beyond the fifth fret, where there is a natural crescendo build up to the high D on the 10th fret on bar 34. I didn't like this piece at first, but its probably my favourite now from a musical perspective, it takes more of a 'journey' than the previous studies.

Here's my attempt, feedback as always welcome:

Sor Op60 #16 -Andantino

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Jorge Oliveira
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Sat Feb 25, 2017 11:38 pm

MattPM wrote:Nice clean articulate playing Jorge - I preferred the apoyando version as it gave the melody more emphasis.

This week I've focussed on #16 which despite being at an "Andantino" tempo is fairly unforgiving ...
Thank you, Matt, for your comment on my interpretation of the #4 using the apoyando technique. I also prefer it when compared with the previous rendition in which I used the rest stroke. But playing it in a slower tempo makes it difficult to maintain the same rhythm throughout the piece. Hearing it again and again I get the impression that I've speeded it up a little bit in the second section... :)

Listened to your rendition of the #16 and I have nothing to say, everything seems OK to me, you played it splendidly. It's a beautiful piece, indeed. As for me, I'm still polishing the #6 but, meanwhile, I've started with the #7 as well. Very funny thing in measure 12, I've yet to devise how to play those notes... :D. By the way, I already have the Nicholas Goluses CD you recommended, it was offered to me by a good friend of mine, Monique (she is Dutch and lives in Delft, The Netherlands), whom I'm trying to convince to join this Forum... :D. Quite a guitarist. I'm now listening to his rendition before tackling a new piece.

The table of posted pieces is now the following (you are really speeding ahead :shock:):
Sor's Opus 60 recorded pieces as of 25Feb17.png
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Henny
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Henny » Sun Feb 26, 2017 2:37 pm

here is the nr, 10 op.60
sor,op.60 10.wma
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Jorge Oliveira
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Sun Feb 26, 2017 5:04 pm

Beautiful, Henny, clean and very well played. The record itself is superb, the Apogee microphone is indeed good. I really have to speed up my renditions. Still polishing the #6 for recording :oops:, and started the first two sections of the #7 :D...

The table of posted pieces is now the following:
Sor's Opus 60 recorded pieces as of 26Feb17.png
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Aria A558, 655 mm, Cedar, 1987, Nagoya, Japan
Hermanos Camps Master, 650 mm, Cedar, 2014 (Nº 3), Spain

Henny
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Henny » Sun Feb 26, 2017 7:10 pm

hi Jorge,
I like the way you played both versions, very clean, no hesitation, from the 2 versions i would like to hear the apoyando with the tempo from the first one. but both versions have good qualities. it is technical more challenging to play apoyando faster.
the next weekend I will have no time to record, i will be away from my guitar that weekend.
I tried nr. 11 and it needs quite some attention to damp the right notes and to play it well.
it will take some time ( many takes) for me to get it right without missed notes etc..
In the week i will take time to listen to Matt and give my feedback.

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Jorge Oliveira
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Sun Feb 26, 2017 7:39 pm

Thanks, Henny, I'm glad you liked the apoyando version. The fact that I played it slower was on purpose, as I feel this little piece has some "drama" in it which is enhanced when played at a lower tempo. But I can play it faster, even faster than the first version using the apoyando technique. I fact, I just put the metronome at 1/4 = 80 and, after some adjustment, I could play it with not so many mistakes. But you are right, I'm faster with the rest stroke, as I did on the #5, and the sound that comes out is also very pleasant.
Aria A558, 655 mm, Cedar, 1987, Nagoya, Japan
Hermanos Camps Master, 650 mm, Cedar, 2014 (Nº 3), Spain

Henny
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Henny » Mon Feb 27, 2017 3:22 pm

Hi Matt,
i listened with interest nr 16,
you mentioned the journey gets more interesting.
sofar I am still happy with the first 10 nrs. I did.
to find the essence/story/journey and try to pass it to the listener.
i will continue and discover what you already recorded and brought to us.
your recording is nice to listen to. clean and good tempo.
some small remarks: you keep a very very steady beat throughout the whole piece , but when coming to bars
42 and 46 you play these bars less convincing.
when I play it myself i will have a better understanding of the difficulty for these bars.
it will take me quite some time before i can post my nr 16.
thanks Matt for posting and giving feedback to us.

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MattPM
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by MattPM » Mon Feb 27, 2017 11:08 pm

Jorge/Henny thanks for listening and for the feedback. As for bars 42 and 46 I will have to revisit. Again I was using Nicolas Goluses as inspiration who appears to take liberties with the timing in these places and elsewhere (try tapping along with his recording - he 'loses' 1/2 a beat or so in these parts from what appears to be well beyond natural rubato). I think I will try transcribing the sixtuplets and quintuplets in a software package when I have time to hear how it should sound 'straight' as written and help me count it. Quick browse of YouTube might be worth it too!
:merci:

I listened to you #10 and it sounded great. I liked the natural ebb and flow you gave to the timing of the piece. From a musical perspective some notes for my ear could have been more mezzo-forte than piano (in particular the high G note that appears at the beginning of a few of the descending arpeggios e.g the 2nd note of the study) but that's just being picky.

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Jorge Oliveira
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Tue Feb 28, 2017 12:10 am

Henny wrote:hi Jorge,
I like the way you played both versions, very clean, no hesitation, from the 2 versions i would like to hear the apoyando with the tempo from the first one. but both versions have good qualities. it is technical more challenging to play apoyando faster. ...
Henni, as requested, please find below records of the #4 played at 1/4 = 65 bpm (the same tempo as in V2, where I used rest strokes) and 1/4 = 80 bpm, both using the apoyando technique. I really prefer this piece in a slow tempo :).
Fernando Sor - Opus 60 #4 (V4 apoyando, quarter = 65 bpm).wma
Fernando Sor - Opus 60 #4 (V5 apoyando, quarter = 80 bpm).wma
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Aria A558, 655 mm, Cedar, 1987, Nagoya, Japan
Hermanos Camps Master, 650 mm, Cedar, 2014 (Nº 3), Spain

Henny
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Henny » Tue Feb 28, 2017 9:47 am

Hi Matt,
It took me 7 takes to record nr 10, I found it quite a challenge to have the right phrasing and flow going
Good criticism can only improve our playing and recordings even the picky criticism.
I am in favor that our criticism is to the point, and covers all aspects of our playing.
Note for your bars 42 and 46. When I have a difficult Rhythm in a Bar, I write out all the notes in the quickest notes from that Bar.
Then play it at first with all the quick notes, when I have a good understanding of the right rhythm I take The metronome and verify it in slow tempo in the right way, so finally I can play it the way it should be played.

Henny
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Henny » Tue Feb 28, 2017 2:44 pm

Hi Jorge,
both versions are well played. good balance and no rush to be heard when played in tempo
which one we prefer is a matter of taste, that can change in time too.
I also liked to play nr.4 myself in a slow tempo but was surprised to
hear a version that changed the whole mood to a cheerful one, as it was played quicker.
thanks for sharing your efforts with us, good to hear the progress you are making.

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Jorge Oliveira
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Wed Mar 01, 2017 7:36 pm

Dear Friends:

As usual, there follows some statistical data concerning your participation in this thread for the last month, February 2017.
Delcamp Forum, Sor's Opus 60 thread - Feb_2017.png
Those in Amber are Forum Members who posted for the first time in this Topic in February. Those with zero posts, posted sometime in the past but not in February. Nevertheless, their names will be kept in the graph so we all know whom ever was interested in this Topic.

The following graphic present the daily ramp up of posts and views for the last month:
Delcamp Forum, Sor's Opus 60 thread, posts and views - Feb_2017.png
The next graph depicts the total number of monthly posts and views since thsi Topic was initiated in December 2016.
Delcamp Forum, Sor's Opus 60 thread - Montlhy Posts & Views.png
Regrettably, the participation in this Topic seems to be decreasing. That's life... :(

I thank you all, again, for your support to this Project.

Jorge

EDITED to correct the label of the third month (Feb-17) in the third graph... :)
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Last edited by Jorge Oliveira on Thu Mar 02, 2017 4:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Aria A558, 655 mm, Cedar, 1987, Nagoya, Japan
Hermanos Camps Master, 650 mm, Cedar, 2014 (Nº 3), Spain

Henny
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Location: Amsterdam

Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Henny » Thu Mar 02, 2017 3:03 pm

Hi Jorge,
good to have statistics Jorge,
the fact we can use this site to our advantage, is for the benefit of all who are in one way or another interested.
lets try to continue even with some hick ups now and then.
the 2e part of the 25 studies of op.60 are even more challenging and i am not sure who like to continue or join.
all options are open.

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Yisrael van Handel
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Yisrael van Handel » Thu Mar 02, 2017 4:19 pm

Jorge Oliveira wrote:Dear Friends:
Regrettably, the participation in this Topic seems to be decreasing. That's life... :(
Jorge
Jorge,
I am still very much with you in this project. There is currently major upheaval in my life because I lost my job of more than 10 years. As I am 67 years old, it is not so easy to get a new job. I cannot afford to retire just yet. Due to the focus on restoring income, I have had very little time to practice. Henny correctly pointed out that I had a problem with legato playing, and I am working very hard on that, but I have not yet pinpointed the actual problem. It is improving. Some of the problem has to do with nails and I suspect that some of it has to do with left-right hand coordination, and some of it has to do with touching strings inadvertently due sloppy movements in left and right hands. I continue to work on the problem, and when I have a good recording of #5, I hope to move on quickly. I would like to catch up to Henny and you so that I can benefit from your comments and the problems that you have solved on the pieces that you are playing.
Yisrael van Handel
Modi'in Ilit, Israel

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