Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

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Jorge Oliveira
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Thu Mar 02, 2017 5:09 pm

Hi Yisrael:

Take your time, we know you have other priorities in life at this moment. As for the #5, I also have to produce a second version as there were some wrong notes in the first. But I want to post first the #6, may be still this week.

As for you producing "a good recording of #5", well, this is a long and relatively fast playing piece and, as in live performances, you are bound to make mistakes here and there. So, to produce a good recording in a single take is very unlikely. What I do is to start recording the piece and, any time I make a mistake, I do not stop the recorder, I simply start the section again and proceed this way until I'm sure I have a good rendition of each section of the piece and its repetitions. Once finished, I transfer the audio file to my PC and, using Audacity, I simply extricate from the recording those sections with mistakes, ending up with with a complete and clean piece. If you want I can show you how this is done, you simply have to install first Audacity in your PC as well as Teamviewer. Teamviewer is a sort of Skype, with sound and video, but its main purpose is to allow a helper to view and control your PC (and vice-versa in the same session). So, with Teamviewer, I could show you what you can do with Audacity.

Regards,

Jorge
Aria A558, 655 mm, Cedar, 1987, Nagoya, Japan
Hermanos Camps Master, 650 mm, Cedar, 2014 (Nº 3), Spain

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Yisrael van Handel
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Yisrael van Handel » Thu Mar 02, 2017 5:48 pm

Jorge Oliveira wrote:Hi Yisrael:

Take your time, we know you have other priorities in life at this moment. <snip>
As for you producing "a good recording of #5", well, this is a long and relatively fast playing piece and, as in live performances, you are bound to make mistakes here and there. So, to produce a good recording in a single take is very unlikely. What I do is to start recording the piece and, any time I make a mistake, I do not stop the recorder, I simply start the section again and proceed this way until I'm sure I have a good rendition of each section of the piece and its repetitions. Once finished, I transfer the audio file to my PC and, using Audacity, I simply extricate from the recording those sections with mistakes, ending up with with a complete and clean piece.
Jorge
Hi, Jorge.
Thanks for your quick response and kind words. I am very keen on working on accuracy of finger movement, and I want to play the entire piece in one take. I also use Audicity, and I am familiar with the splicing option, but I want to avoid that. It is a question of slowing down, analyzing exactly what the problems are, then practicing until you are back up to speed. I know I can do it, but I need time. And I see that as the way to improve.
By the way, do you work? It is the middle of the day now in Brazil and I am surprised that you have time to respond. Work very much interferes with development in music, but it helps for putting food on the table.
And is long as I am off the subject, Jorge is Spanish. Is it also Portuguese? How do you pronounce that in Portuguese? Like in English?
Warm regards,
Yisrael
Yisrael van Handel
Modi'in Ilit, Israel

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MattPM
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by MattPM » Thu Mar 02, 2017 9:09 pm

Nice stats and graphs Jorge - clearly an engineer by background :lol: ?!

Yes, there's quite a difference between the wide and varied number of posters at the beginning of the thread vs. the few of us 'remaining' now. I have noticed the discussion naturally transition from being wide and varied (e.g Robs video concerning harmony in #1 - I was hopeful at the time for 1 video per study :cry: ;differences between transcriptions etc.) to focussing more on 'uploads' for feedback. Perhaps this was a factor. I'll be sticking around for sure.

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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Henny » Thu Mar 02, 2017 10:43 pm

Agree with your words Matt. everyone is setting their own priorities in the end.
I joint because I wanted to study more Harmony, and at the same time improve my playing by studying regulary. I realise that i make progress with Harmony slowly i tend to focus more on playing op.60 and my repertoire at this moment. In the daytime I find some moments to do offline hand exercises, and singing not much but it helps me to stay focused.
Since I joint i found a lot of resources, beautiful uploads and inspiration with all of your comments and input. my enthusiasm to play has never left me although there were times I had other worries and did not play at all (like Yisrael).
I hope to contribute with my comments and uploads like we all do here.

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Jorge Oliveira
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Fri Mar 03, 2017 12:11 pm

Yisrael van Handel wrote: Hi, Jorge.
...
By the way, do you work? It is the middle of the day now in Brazil and I am surprised that you have time to respond. Work very much interferes with development in music, but it helps for putting food on the table.
And is long as I am off the subject, Jorge is Spanish. Is it also Portuguese? How do you pronounce that in Portuguese? Like in English?
Warm regards,
Yisrael
No, Yisrael, I'll be 70 years old in August and I'm retired since I completed 65. So I have plenty of time to play the guitar and interact with this Forum :D. That was not the case when I was working, naturally. I'm an Electrical Engineer graduated at the Universidade de Lourenço Marques, Mozambique (renamed to Universidade Eduardo Mondlane after the Independence) and started my professional life as a University Assistant at that university, still in colonial days. Two years later I was sent to Manchester for postgraduate studies at the UMIST, where I stayed four years and got my M.Sc. and Ph.D., specializing in computers and telecommunications. I returned to the Universidade Eduardo Mondlane as an Auxiliary Professor and, beyond teaching, I set up the university computing centre. Eventually I left the university to join a project in Mozambique as a UNESCO staff member for four years. Moving afterwards to Portugal, I joined Alcatel Portugal and stayed there for 15 years. In my last 12 of years or so of professional life I worked as a consultant in software development and institutional building for a private university in Mozambique, but based in Portugal. Finally, I'm married since 1996, we have three children and four grandchildren :). And, very briefly, that's all about me.

No, Yisrael, I'm not based in Brazil, I'm Portuguese and I live in Cascais, some 30 km from Lisbon. And, yes, Jorge is also a Spanish name, though pronounced in a radically different way. In Spanish, both the J and the G have a guttural sound, a bit Arabic. In Portuguese, Jorge is pronounced as if it were the English word "Jorje", though the equivalent in English is George. The "Jo" is like the "Jo" in John, the R after the "Jo" is like in "car", and the last "ge" is like in "cage". It's a bit strange but I hope you got it.

Best regards,

Jorge
Aria A558, 655 mm, Cedar, 1987, Nagoya, Japan
Hermanos Camps Master, 650 mm, Cedar, 2014 (Nº 3), Spain

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Jorge Oliveira
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Fri Mar 03, 2017 4:22 pm

MattPM wrote:Nice stats and graphs Jorge - clearly an engineer by background :lol: ?!
Yes, from my post above you can see that I do have an engineering background. And, as I use to say, "if you don't measure things, then it's because you are not interested in them", because I'm really interested in this thread, I'm collecting statistical information concerning its use and sharing it with Forum Members and Visitors who follow it. Although not directly related with the objectives of the Topic, I think it's always interesting to know how much interest it is drawing.
MattPM wrote:Yes, there's quite a difference between the wide and varied number of posters at the beginning of the thread vs. the few of us 'remaining' now. I have noticed the discussion naturally transition from being wide and varied (e.g Robs video concerning harmony in #1 - I was hopeful at the time for 1 video per study :cry: ;differences between transcriptions etc.) to focussing more on 'uploads' for feedback. Perhaps this was a factor. I'll be sticking around for sure.
Indeed, after such a resounding start, I was hoping the general interest in the Topic would remain high and more and more people would join the Project and post their recordings of Opus 60 pieces. That is not happening, unfortunately.

As for recording video clips, nothing in the Topic prevents it, but only if you are a "professional" you will be able to produce videos with acceptable quality. I've produced some videos of Tárrega, Aguado and Carulli pieces using the camera of my iPhone but it implies that you are able to play them straight, with no mistakes, as editing video files is no easy task. You also have to be able to record the sound separately and mix everything in the end, and this is not for everyone... :cry: But I may do it, eventually, with the #4, as I'm already quite familiar with it :).
Aria A558, 655 mm, Cedar, 1987, Nagoya, Japan
Hermanos Camps Master, 650 mm, Cedar, 2014 (Nº 3), Spain

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MattPM
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by MattPM » Fri Mar 03, 2017 7:05 pm

Great, I'm an engineer too so very much appreciate the data analysis!

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Jorge Oliveira
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Tue Mar 07, 2017 7:47 pm

It's a long time since I posted my last piece of Opus 60, the #5. This time I'm posting a rendition of the next piece, the #6 (Sor, Fernando - Opus 60 #6 (V1).wma) for you all to listen to and comment. As usual, the record was produced with the Zoom Handy Recorder app on my iPhone, the sound capture being made by an iRig microphone that connects directly to the iPhone. The guitar used in the record was my Hermanos Camps Master with Konobloch Actives Carbon CX, High Tension strings (it's 1 month and 21 days since I put them in the guitar and they still sound great). The resulting .wav file was then processed with the Audacity audio editor on Windows 10 to produce the .wma file below. So, my list is now as follows (new or updated comments in green):
  1. Sor’s Opus 60, Nº 1. Learning period: 03Dec16 - 15Dec16.
    Opus 60 #1 (V3).wma
    Opus 60 #1 (V3).mp3
  2. Sor’s Opus 60, Nº 2. Learning Period: 16Dec16 - 27Dec16.
    Opus 60 #2 (V1).wma
    Opus 60 #2 (V1).mp3
  3. Sor’s Opus 60, Nº 3. Learning Period: 28Dec16 - 13Jan17.
    Opus 60 #3 (V1).wma
    .wmaOpus 60 #3 (V1).mp3
  4. Sor’s Opus 60, Nº 4. Learning Period: 14Jan17 - 25Jan17.
    Fernando Sor - Opus 60 #4 (V4 apoyando, quarter = 65 bpm).wma
  5. Sor’s Opus 60, Nº 5. Learning period: 20Nov16 - 09Jan17.
    Sor, Fernando - Opus 60 #5 (V1).wma
  6. Sor’s Opus 60, Nº 6. Learning period: 16Nov16 - 07Mar17. Comment: I'm not particularly pround of this rendition of mine. I'm aware I'm not strictly respecting the tempo, specially in the first section. But I did it on purpose as otherwise the the piece becomes a bit dull. However, if my companions and visitors feel it unbearable to listen :D, I'll make another recording, this time trying to adhere to the metronome as much as I can (in my case, the tempo will be around 1/4 = 70 bpm).
    Sor, Fernando - Opus 60 #6 (V1).wma
So, now, the table of posted studies is the following:
Sor's Opus 60 recorded pieces as of 07Mar17.png
My next self-assignment is to learn the #7 study and post a sound file once I find it ready.
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Aria A558, 655 mm, Cedar, 1987, Nagoya, Japan
Hermanos Camps Master, 650 mm, Cedar, 2014 (Nº 3), Spain

Henny
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Henny » Wed Mar 08, 2017 1:06 pm

hi Jorge,

thanks for the Op60 nr 6 upload.
it makes me smile that you alter the tempo in nr 6 of Sor op 60 as you found Sor's piece somewhat dull. Sor would not agree with you....
I do not think it improves the quality now you altered it.
You have a good tone, nice performance and even in a slow tempo it could be wonderful but for me the 2/4 tempo should be kept, played with the right note values.
if wish you can you do a version with the right note values in the right tempo?

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Jorge Oliveira
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Wed Mar 08, 2017 1:55 pm

Right, Henni, thanks for your comments. I'll do a new recording with a more steady tempo, which will be around 1/4 = 75 bpm. Let's see if it comes out better... :)
Aria A558, 655 mm, Cedar, 1987, Nagoya, Japan
Hermanos Camps Master, 650 mm, Cedar, 2014 (Nº 3), Spain

Henny
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Henny » Wed Mar 08, 2017 2:26 pm

Jorge I did not mean the speed, the speed is not relevant at the moment. our focus is to ''learn to play Sor'' as he wrote the music, in your recording the first bar the 3th and 4th are played with different note values then the first 2 notes from the first bar. this goes throughout the whole first section. if you play the right note values your rendition could be very good. good luck.

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Jorge Oliveira
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Wed Mar 08, 2017 3:10 pm

I see your point, Henni, I'll be more careful in my new recording. Nevertheless, 75 is not fast is what I feel adequate to the piece.

However, now that we are here, may be you could clarify things in the score that are puzzling me, for sure because I did not have a formal musical education and these small details elude me. Take for instance, the very first note of the score of this #6, a G. Aligned with this G - an eight note -, there is, just below it and bellow the staff, an eight rest. What is the meaning of it? Is it to indicate that this G, extracted naturally with the third open string, should not be allowed to sound beyond its one eight duration? But, if yes, how can you damp such a fast note and not stumble in the following one? Or is it that this rest is replacing a bass eight note that is not there but could be? Indeed, if you look at the following measure, there is no rest in the bass line as the half note C completes the two quarters of the 2/4 score time signature. And, if you look at the bass line of the second measure, there is a quarter rest bellow the staff which, together with the third note, a quarter F, completes the two quarters in the bass line required by the score time signature. Also, if you go to the treble area of the staff in this second measure, indeed you have three eight notes which, together with the eight rest in the third position (above the F), also completes the 2/4 time signature of the score. If I'm reasoning correctly, then both the treble and the bass lines of a score must conform with its time signature and, in this case, the very first note of this #6 is simply played, its volume would decay naturally and that would be all. Would you, or anyone else, please, comment on this?
Last edited by Jorge Oliveira on Wed Mar 08, 2017 6:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Aria A558, 655 mm, Cedar, 1987, Nagoya, Japan
Hermanos Camps Master, 650 mm, Cedar, 2014 (Nº 3), Spain

Henny
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Henny » Wed Mar 08, 2017 3:58 pm

Jorge,
Sometimes there is a rest above or below a note if it is part of a different voice. f.e. the rests in the lower voice are there so that the lower voice has the correct number of beats, However not in every piece of music they will write it out.

vinnyob22
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by vinnyob22 » Wed Mar 08, 2017 4:16 pm

Here is my recording of #23.


Youtube

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Jorge Oliveira
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Wed Mar 08, 2017 6:39 pm

Henny wrote:Jorge,
Sometimes there is a rest above or below a note if it is part of a different voice. f.e. the rests in the lower voice are there so that the lower voice has the correct number of beats, However not in every piece of music they will write it out.
Ah, OK I was reasoning correctly, then. Many thanks, Henny.
Last edited by Jorge Oliveira on Wed Mar 08, 2017 6:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Aria A558, 655 mm, Cedar, 1987, Nagoya, Japan
Hermanos Camps Master, 650 mm, Cedar, 2014 (Nº 3), Spain

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