Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Discussions relating to the classical guitar which don't fit elsewhere.
Henny
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Henny » Tue Mar 14, 2017 3:50 pm

hi Jorge,
thanks you for your uploads and the comment about the descending slur in bar 31.(i listened to nr 6 first.)
i can see your point and you are right that it is hard to play it clear and clean.
(do some simple LH/RH coordination exercises and you can improve quickly)
however in my opinion you should only go into details when you can play the right rhythm.
take a metronome, sing or clap your hands for the first 8 bars, then play very slow and try to hear it.
listen carefully to your recording. you can only improve if you hear what you are playing.

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Jorge Oliveira
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Tue Mar 14, 2017 4:39 pm

Henny wrote:...
however in my opinion you should only go into details when you can play the right rhythm.
take a metronome, sing or clap your hands for the first 8 bars, then play very slow and try to hear it.
listen carefully to your recording. you can only improve if you hear what you are playing.
Hi, Henny:
Thanks for listening to my #6 rendition and for your comments. Right, I'll make, then, another record where I'll try to maintain the tempo at 1/4 = 75 bpm sharp throughout the piece :)...
1972 - Kuniharu Nobe #8, 658/51, Spruce, RW B&S, Tokio, Japan
1987 - Aria A558, 650/51 mm, Cedar, laminated RW B&S, Nagoya, Japan
2014 - Hermanos Camps Master Nº 3, 650/52 mm, Canadian Cedar, Madagascar RW B&S, Banyoles, Spain

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Jorge Oliveira
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Tue Mar 14, 2017 7:25 pm

So, Henny, there you are, a new rendition (version 3) of Sor's Opus 60 #6 at a more steady tempo (I think :)) of around 1/4 = 75 bpm or slightly higher. And I think the special slur in measure 31 came out better this time. Please let me know your impressions on this one. Many thanks in advance :D.
Sor, Fernando - Opus 60 #6 (V3).wma
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1972 - Kuniharu Nobe #8, 658/51, Spruce, RW B&S, Tokio, Japan
1987 - Aria A558, 650/51 mm, Cedar, laminated RW B&S, Nagoya, Japan
2014 - Hermanos Camps Master Nº 3, 650/52 mm, Canadian Cedar, Madagascar RW B&S, Banyoles, Spain

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Yisrael van Handel
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Location: Modi'in Illit, Israel

Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Yisrael van Handel » Tue Mar 14, 2017 9:01 pm

Jorge Oliveira wrote:So, Henny, there you are, a new rendition (version 3) of Sor's Opus 60 #6 at a more steady tempo (I think :)) of around 1/4 = 75 bpm or slightly higher.
Very nice. Convincing phrasing, smooth playing, even tempo throughout. Well done! I think I would give the last note at the end of each phrase its full value rather than making it staccato. Good tone. Very enjoyable.
Yisrael van Handel
Modi'in Ilit, Israel

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Jorge Oliveira
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Tue Mar 14, 2017 11:00 pm

Thank you, Yisrael, I'm glad you liked. I'm really enjoying this project, I'm learning a lot... :D.
1972 - Kuniharu Nobe #8, 658/51, Spruce, RW B&S, Tokio, Japan
1987 - Aria A558, 650/51 mm, Cedar, laminated RW B&S, Nagoya, Japan
2014 - Hermanos Camps Master Nº 3, 650/52 mm, Canadian Cedar, Madagascar RW B&S, Banyoles, Spain

Henny
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Location: Amsterdam

Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Henny » Wed Mar 15, 2017 9:47 am

Hello Jorge,
you play much more relaxed, the musical phrasing comes out better. like Yisrael said well done.
your improvement now reminded me of the what Sor wrote in his introduction to Op 60.: to take the fingers of the string when needed elsewhere.
I also agree with Yisrael about the last remark.
have a nice day Jorge.

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Jorge Oliveira
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Wed Mar 15, 2017 1:01 pm

Yisrael van Handel wrote: .. I think I would give the last note at the end of each phrase its full value rather than making it staccato...
Henny wrote:Hello Jorge,
you play much more relaxed, the musical phrasing comes out better. like Yisrael said well done.
your improvement now reminded me of the what Sor wrote in his introduction to Op 60.: to take the fingers of the string when needed elsewhere.
I also agree with Yisrael about the last remark.
have a nice day Jorge.
Thank you again, Yisrael, thank you, Henny, for listening and for your comments, I'm really pleased :D. Concerning your remark on the last note of each phrase (I understand you mean the note of the last measure of a section, limited by a bold bar line, with or without a repeat sign), I wonder if you could clarify how to connect it to the note that immediately follows it in the score - the first note of the current section if you have a repeat sign, or the first note of the following section, otherwise. Should one make a small, though unwritten, pause before moving into the first note of the next section? Take, for instance, the last C in measure 8 of the #6, and the first isolated note, a G, just before measures 1 (when the section is repeated) and 9. Should one keep the C ringing for its length - 1 quarter beat - or should we leave the ringing further before plucking the G? And, if yes, for how long exactly? Three quarters? I've not been doing it and thus the staccato you noticed in my rendition? I've been searching the Internet for an answer to this with no avail. Can you (or Henny) help me? Thanks in advance :) and a nice day for you both.
1972 - Kuniharu Nobe #8, 658/51, Spruce, RW B&S, Tokio, Japan
1987 - Aria A558, 650/51 mm, Cedar, laminated RW B&S, Nagoya, Japan
2014 - Hermanos Camps Master Nº 3, 650/52 mm, Canadian Cedar, Madagascar RW B&S, Banyoles, Spain

Henny
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Location: Amsterdam

Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Henny » Thu Mar 16, 2017 1:35 pm

Jorge, think about your question in a musical approach: when you sing a voice line in music would you stop abruptly (staccato) ?
listen to your recording and ask yourself what to improve, mark it on the score and practice those difficult bars from the middle of a bar and end up a couple of bars later in the middle of that bar by singing, counting or humming. when you really feel the music try to play it.
if you want to play staccato at the end of a phrase, you must know the musical reason to do so.
we spend hours to play one minute of beautiful music, enjoy the hard work.

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Jorge Oliveira
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Thu Mar 16, 2017 1:55 pm

OK, Henny, I listened again to my record of the #6 and I think I understand now what you mean. At the end of two or three sections I am, perhaps, muffling the sound too abruptly, it might sound better if I let ring the last note or accord a little bit longer. I'll pay attention to it next time (I'm looking now at the #9, as it is very similar to the #8) . Many thanks for your help :D.
Last edited by Jorge Oliveira on Sat Mar 18, 2017 10:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
1972 - Kuniharu Nobe #8, 658/51, Spruce, RW B&S, Tokio, Japan
1987 - Aria A558, 650/51 mm, Cedar, laminated RW B&S, Nagoya, Japan
2014 - Hermanos Camps Master Nº 3, 650/52 mm, Canadian Cedar, Madagascar RW B&S, Banyoles, Spain

Henny
Posts: 144
Joined: Sat Sep 10, 2016 5:47 pm
Location: Amsterdam

Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Henny » Sat Mar 18, 2017 9:51 pm

here is my nr 12. for this week.
sor op.60 12.wma
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Jorge Oliveira
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Sat Mar 18, 2017 10:37 pm

Henny wrote:here is my nr 12. for this week.
sor op.60 12.wma
Very beautiful and quite well played, Henny, congratulations :).

There you have, one more entry into the table.
Sor's Opus 60 recorded pieces as of 18Mar17.png
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1972 - Kuniharu Nobe #8, 658/51, Spruce, RW B&S, Tokio, Japan
1987 - Aria A558, 650/51 mm, Cedar, laminated RW B&S, Nagoya, Japan
2014 - Hermanos Camps Master Nº 3, 650/52 mm, Canadian Cedar, Madagascar RW B&S, Banyoles, Spain

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Jorge Oliveira
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Location: Cascais, Portugal

Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Tue Mar 21, 2017 11:20 am

Well, instead of Sor's Opus 60 #7, as promised in my post of Mar-17, I decided to proceed towards the #9, as this is a continuation of the # 8. So, please see below my rendition of this #8 (Sor, Fernando - Opus 60 #9.wma) for you all to listen to and comment. As usual, the record was produced with the Zoom Handy Recorder app on my iPhone, the sound capture being made by an iRig microphone that connects directly to the iPhone. The guitar used in the record was my Hermanos Camps Master with Konobloch Actives Carbon CX, High Tension strings (already two months and seven days old, but still fantastic :D). The resulting .wav file was then processed with the Audacity audio editor on Windows 10 to produce the .wma file below. So, my list is now as follows (new or updated comments in green):
  1. Sor’s Opus 60, Nº 1. Learning period: 03Dec16 - 15Dec16.
    Sor, Fernando - Opus 60 #1 (V3).wma
    Opus 60 #1 (V3).mp3
  2. Sor’s Opus 60, Nº 2. Learning Period: 16Dec16 - 27Dec16.
    Sor, Fernando - Opus 60 #2 (V1).wma
    Opus 60 #2 (V1).mp3
  3. Sor’s Opus 60, Nº 3. Learning Period: 28Dec16 - 13Jan17.
    Sor, Fernando - Opus 60 #3 (V1).wma
    Opus 60 #3 (V1).mp3
  4. Sor’s Opus 60, Nº 4. Learning Period: 14Jan17 - 25Jan17.
    Sor, Fernando - Opus 60 #4 (V4 apoyando, quarter = 65 bpm).wma
  5. Sor’s Opus 60, Nº 5. Learning period: 20Nov16 - 09Jan17.
    Sor, Fernando - Opus 60 #5 (V1).wma
  6. Sor's Opus 60 Nº 6. Learning period: 16Nov16 - 07Mar17.
    Sor, Fernando - Opus 60 #6 (V3).wma
  7. Sor’s Opus 60, Nº 7. Learning period: 08Mar17 - .... Comment: Still studying it.. :(.
  8. Sor's Opus 60, Nº 8. Learning period: 08Mar17 - 13Mar17.
    Sor, Fernando - Opus 60 #8.wma
  9. Sor's Opus 60, Nº 9. Learning period: 14Mar17 - 20Mar17.Comment: Sor's Opus 60 #9 is a continuation of the #8. The accords are similar but the "beat" is higher. It is not difficult and the only tricky part is in the second half of measure 13 which requires a judicious pre-positioning of the LH fingers in preparation for these fast notes. In this record I'm playing it at 1/4 = 130 bpm, and it took me two or three days to achieve it. I feel, however, that I've reached my limits and that if I play, perhaps, at 1/ = 125 bpm, the notes may come out better in terms of tone and clarity. What do you think?
    Sor, Fernando - Opus 60 #9.wma
So, now, the table of posted studies is the following:
Sor's Opus 60 recorded pieces as of 20Mar17.png
My next self-assignment is, still,to learn the #7 study and post a sound file once I find it ready.
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1972 - Kuniharu Nobe #8, 658/51, Spruce, RW B&S, Tokio, Japan
1987 - Aria A558, 650/51 mm, Cedar, laminated RW B&S, Nagoya, Japan
2014 - Hermanos Camps Master Nº 3, 650/52 mm, Canadian Cedar, Madagascar RW B&S, Banyoles, Spain

Henny
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Location: Amsterdam

Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Henny » Wed Mar 22, 2017 11:37 am

Jorge, you worked well the last weeks.
#8 and # 9 are well played. one remark for #9 , it gives me the idea of unrest or being in a hurry , in my opinion this is due to a lack of synchronization between LH/RH and/or finger independence (a finger)
some questions came up:
1: do you do a technical warm up before you start playing?
2: what technical exercise do you do at this moment to improve your playing?
3: what is at this moment the nr.one for you to improve in your playing?

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Jorge Oliveira
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Wed Mar 22, 2017 1:12 pm

Many thanks, Henny, for listening and commenting my renditions of #8 and #9. I should have practised the #9 at least one more day, I would have played it with a more steady tempo (I accelerated a little bit in the 2nd part, I think) but the truth is that I was already tired of it and wanted to move on to another piece (I'm now on the #7). Concerning your questions:
  1. Yes, I do first some warming up of my hands before playing even the first note. I follow the exercises in the book "I'M A GUITARIST - How do I warm up my HANDS?" written by Javier Corroto Arance (I bought this book at Guitarras de Luthier in Madrid). Afterwards I do two series of arpeggios exercises where every combination of RH fingers is used - single fingers and two_fingers/one_finger. This takes me around 10 minutes to complete. After this I start playing.
  2. I don't think I do any technical exercise to improve my playing. Can you, please, be more specific or give me examples of such exercises? I do have Hubert Kappel's "THE BIBLE OF CLASSICAL GUITAR". In case you also have it, may be you could suggest something from there?
  3. Well, I haven't thought about it, but there are things I would like to be able to do in a clean way: tremolo is one of them, avoiding bass string squeaks is another. Moreover, I should have the habit of doing scales, which I don't, and would like to be a bit more proficient in sight reading as well. In order for me to have an idea, would you please tell me what is the nr. 1 in your list?
Regards,
Jorge
1972 - Kuniharu Nobe #8, 658/51, Spruce, RW B&S, Tokio, Japan
1987 - Aria A558, 650/51 mm, Cedar, laminated RW B&S, Nagoya, Japan
2014 - Hermanos Camps Master Nº 3, 650/52 mm, Canadian Cedar, Madagascar RW B&S, Banyoles, Spain

Henny
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Location: Amsterdam

Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Henny » Thu Mar 23, 2017 11:59 am

Jorge,
i do not have Hubert Kappels book, but take from the internet just what i find useful
my nr one on the list is Tone and relaxation
(in particular: every finger equal pressure and relaxation when needed)
to be more precise, i use the app: music journal
where half of the entries are technical and half is Sor and my repertoir.
I have short term and long term goals
I do off guitar hand exercises for both hands
when i start playing i do my warm up with a short Tone production stretch exercise for the left hand.
then choose from the list of technical exercises the one that
i like to do. practice Sor and if time is there a piece of my repertoir.

as i keep a daily journal i know what i practice how much i played,
what i did not do and what has never been done.
this keeps me very motivated as i have a lot of choice for my exercises.
to control my efforts i set my target for any exercise at 5 times in a row without mistakes before
going to the next level.

the exercise of simon powis ''buzzing'' (yt video) is one of my exercises to play more
relaxed with my left hand, at the same it serves to a more precise finger position.
Scott Tenant RH/LH synchronisation, Picado exercises etc.. they all serve for me one goal:
playing beautifully with full technical control in a relaxed but concentrated way.

i hope this answered your question.








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