Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

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artdecade
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by artdecade » Wed Mar 29, 2017 7:08 pm

Yes, thank you for the guidance. I am going through the first piece and using Rob Mackillop's lesson on harmony and phrasing for guidance. I will see about getting something to do some recording as well.
Unhindered by talent.

Henny
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Henny » Fri Mar 31, 2017 5:57 am

artdecade, your are welcome, we are looking forward to hear your recording. we all like to be inspired, we all face more or less the same difficulties in our musical journey and like to share our progres

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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Henny » Fri Mar 31, 2017 8:30 am

hi all, in the month of April I will be on holiday for a moment,
I hope to upload nr 15 this weekend but then I will have a break.
you will have time to catch up more.
I noticed with nr 16 the right hand fingering takes more time to figure out what works
best for bringing the voices forward.
I agree with pmiklitz in delcamp who wrote:
An important part of learning a piece is deciding on fingerings for both hands.
If you do this properly, i.e. trying lots of different
ways to finger a certain passage, it's a time consuming process but rewarding.

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Jorge Oliveira
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Fri Mar 31, 2017 2:07 pm

Henny wrote:...
I agree with pmiklitz in delcamp who wrote:
An important part of learning a piece is deciding on fingerings for both hands.
If you do this properly, i.e. trying lots of different
ways to finger a certain passage, it's a time consuming process but rewarding.
Enjoy your holidays, Henny. Upon your return I hope to have uploaded a couple pieces more, beyond the #7 (quite tricky) and the #10 (simple and lovely - how could Sor, out of a simple C major position, extract such a combination of beautiful notes? Amazing... :D) that are almost ready. But then, I don't know, my daughter from England and her two children - 5 years old girl and a baby boy - will arrive this Sunday for a 10 day stay and I don't expect to be able to practice that much... :(

I fully agree with what pmiklitz says. I always try to set up positions in the LH that minimize the movement of the fingers as one proceeds in the piece. For instance, in measure 13 of #9 (and it can be applied also to the same measure in the #8), I start the first group of notes with the following position of the fingers in my LH:
Fernando Sor - Oppus 60 #9, measure 13_1.png
Then, just before attacking the second group of notes, I simply withdraw finger 4 from the 1st string and put finger 3 in the 2nd string as shown in the picture below:
Fernando Sor - Oppus 60 #9, measure 13_2.png
Please notice that fingers 1 and 2 remain in place throughout the measure. In this way, the finger movements are minimized and the required speed in this measure can be attained with no special effort.
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1987 - Aria A558, 650/51 mm, Cedar, laminated Rosewood B&S, Nagoya, Japan
2014 - Hermanos Camps Master Nº 3, 650/52 mm, Canadian Cedar/Madagascar Rosewood B&S, Banyoles (Catalonia), Spain

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Jorge Oliveira
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Sun Apr 02, 2017 12:22 pm

Dear Friends:

As usual, there follows some statistical data concerning your participation in this thread for the last month, March 2017.
Delcamp Forum, Sor's Opus 60 thread - Mar_2017.png
Those in Amber are Forum Members who posted for the first time in this Topic in March. Those with zero posts, posted sometime in the past but not in March. Nevertheless, their names will be kept in the graph so we all know whom ever was interested in this Topic.

The following graphic present the daily ramp up of posts and views for the last month:
Delcamp Forum, Sor's Opus 60 thread, posts and views - Mar_2017.png
Finally, the next graph depicts the total number of monthly posts and views since this Topic was initiated in December 2016.
Delcamp Forum, Sor's Opus 60 thread - Montlhy Posts & Views_Dec16-Mar17.png
Apparently, the participation in this Topic seems to be stabilizing. Let's hope more people participate in this month, Apr-17 :).

I thank you all, again, for your support to this Project.

Jorge
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1987 - Aria A558, 650/51 mm, Cedar, laminated Rosewood B&S, Nagoya, Japan
2014 - Hermanos Camps Master Nº 3, 650/52 mm, Canadian Cedar/Madagascar Rosewood B&S, Banyoles (Catalonia), Spain

Henny
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Henny » Sun Apr 02, 2017 12:41 pm

the last one before my pause of april
Sor,op.60 15.wma
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Last edited by Henny on Sun Apr 02, 2017 5:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Henny
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Henny » Sun Apr 02, 2017 12:42 pm

the intention was to upload only one time, they are the same.one can be deleted.

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Jorge Oliveira
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Sun Apr 02, 2017 12:59 pm

I nice one, Henny. And I would say the reverberation is gone. It sounds better this way.

The table of posted pieces is now, then:
Sor's Opus 60 recorded pieces as of 02Apr17.png
PS: Henny, only you (or an Administrator, I guess) can delete the extra entry in your previous post. Use the edit icon on the top right of your post (it is the first of the three, it looks like a pencil) to open the editor and then clean unwanted entries.
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1987 - Aria A558, 650/51 mm, Cedar, laminated Rosewood B&S, Nagoya, Japan
2014 - Hermanos Camps Master Nº 3, 650/52 mm, Canadian Cedar/Madagascar Rosewood B&S, Banyoles (Catalonia), Spain

Henny
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Henny » Thu Apr 06, 2017 9:51 am

jorge (and others), i realise as we progress that without theory and analysis we are walking into a dead-end street with our learning of Sor op 60. the whole idea about the piece of music included the righthand fingering as well as the left hand fingering comes from a good understanding of the phrases in the music (analysis and Theory) I will focus more now then before on this.
it means i will record some of the first pieces of Op 60 again and work on my theory and analysis more then before.

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Jorge Oliveira
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Thu Apr 06, 2017 12:08 pm

Right, Henny, it's a good initiative. In my early days of guitar, I used to play at a group of Coimbra Fado (it is a style of folk music practised mostly by students or former students of the University of Coimbra (700 years old already!)). A group is normally composed of two Portuguese guitars for the melody and one or two classical guitars (wrongly called "viola(s)" here, in Portugal) which provide the accompanying bass notes. Some compositions are instruments only, in others you have a singer (mostly male :oops:). The classical guitar accompanying is mostly made of accord positions in the various tones and single note passages amongst them using the bass strings (D, A and E). So, I'm pretty familiar with positions in all the tones (in any place of the finger board) and in every piece I try to find which positions are dominant in each measure or group of measures. So, by "arming" my LH fingers in the right position I minimize the movements of the LH. The rest is up to RH fingering. And, even if a particular string in a particular position is not going to be used, it doesn't matter because "arming" my LH in a known and familiar position makes me feel comfortable and in control and I'm used to jump very quickly in between positions. Does this makes sense to you?
1987 - Aria A558, 650/51 mm, Cedar, laminated Rosewood B&S, Nagoya, Japan
2014 - Hermanos Camps Master Nº 3, 650/52 mm, Canadian Cedar/Madagascar Rosewood B&S, Banyoles (Catalonia), Spain

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MattPM
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by MattPM » Fri Apr 07, 2017 7:23 pm

Hello fellow Opus 60ers, its been a while and it looks like I failed in my somewhat ambitious objective of uploading all recordings by Q1 2017. Think I will push the objective out to end of Q3 :lol: ! I've found another addiction recently in tennis which has taken up a lot of guitar practice time but I have not neglected guitar completely - I recently joined a local society which has been inspiring and hope to start lessons also.

I've had a listen to your recordings and you have all made good progress :casque: . Hopefully I can post a new recording over the next week. Great stats as ever Jorge - glad to see we have stabilised somewhat on the views and posts.

Henny
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Henny » Sat Apr 08, 2017 6:00 am

Matt, good to see you back.
jorge, you wrote:
"So, by "arming" my LH fingers in the right position I minimize the movements of the LH. The rest is up to RH fingering"

to bring out the voices it makes a difference what right hand fingering you use. A or i makes
a different Tone /accent. when used appropriately first we need to know the harmony and voices: accordingly we put the RH fingering as to bring out in the best possible way the music. to come back to Sor op 60. nr 1, we can play it in different positions with different RH fingering as to bring out the melody and have more variety in Tone. i noticed in op 60 nr 16 this becomes more evident when choosing the RH fingering.
I try to have an equal quality in A, I and M but still I hear differences when attacking with A or I , besides the logical order of RH fingering in the last piece mentioned is up to the player and i noticed that without knowing the Harmony well the choices are more at random.
Note: i am now travelling without my guitar for 2 weeks but have access to reply.
good weekend all.

Henny
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Henny » Wed Apr 12, 2017 5:29 am

with my comments about Harmony i said i would start over with op 60 nr 1.
first here is my analysis: i worked to have it right but other members may have different opinions that can improve my learning process :

Harmony CGC op60/01

A1:
Bar 1 = C7-i (G(E)C), E is missing. B = the 7th leading note of Scale of C. (G is the lowest note here, 3e inversion
Bar 2 – C7 = played as Echo of Bar 1.
Bar 3 = Ci (CEG) (little tension) (D a passing note going to G7 in the next bar)
Bar 4 = G7 (FEDG) B is missing, (E-F = minor 3th = leading note of G7 (septiem) which is accented.
In bar 4 The F note gets an accent here (pause) to avoid stopping the forward motion of the music instead of the previous G in bar 3.
which finds release in the following e note in the G7 Chord, from e to g there is a light acceleration in speed coming to c in Bar 5.
A2:
Bar 5 (same as Bar 1 = echo reminder.
Bar 6 C1= (CE), G is missing , the C is accented as to start the phrase in A2 after the introduction of Bar 5.
the music modulates from C going to G in Bar 6, to D7 in Bar 7, and ends in Bar 8 = G-i (GBD) Release
B1:
Bar 9-12:
The decending voice line from G to D should be clear and clean.
G is a pedal note in bars 9 -12. The voice line ends in a G chord. The bass note D in bar 12 starts the bass voice line in the next 4 bars.
Bar 12 = G-I (GBD) F lowest note, release of tension and start of the bass voice
Bar 13 = Ci (CEG) E lowest note, tension in the bass notes.
Bar 14 = Cii (DFA) buiding up tension)
Bar 15 = Ciii (GBE)
Bar 16 = Ci (CEG) (Tonica) tension released)

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Jorge Oliveira
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Wed Apr 12, 2017 10:45 am

Henny wrote:Matt, good to see you back.
jorge, you wrote:
"So, by "arming" my LH fingers in the right position I minimize the movements of the LH. The rest is up to RH fingering"

to bring out the voices it makes a difference what right hand fingering you use. A or i makes
a different Tone /accent. when used appropriately first we need to know the harmony and voices: accordingly we put the RH fingering as to bring out in the best possible way the music. to come back to Sor op 60. nr 1, we can play it in different positions with different RH fingering as to bring out the melody and have more variety in Tone. i noticed in op 60 nr 16 this becomes more evident when choosing the RH fingering.
I try to have an equal quality in A, I and M but still I hear differences when attacking with A or I , besides the logical order of RH fingering in the last piece mentioned is up to the player and i noticed that without knowing the Harmony well the choices are more at random.
Note: i am now travelling without my guitar for 2 weeks but have access to reply.
good weekend all.
Fully agree with your observations above, Henny, and I would like to add that, sometimes, I do not use the open string to produce a particular note, but a different one so that I can exert a vibrato to the note. This is the case in Opus 60 #5, measures 17, 18, 33 and 34 - the last doted notes, E and B, I play them in the second and third strings, applying thus a little vibrato with a good effect (to my taste, naturally). Also in this piece, in the second group of notes of measure 13, I use fourth and third strings to produce the G (4th string, 5th fret) and the B (3rd string, 4th fret). The tone obtained is clearly different from the one I would achieve if I were to use the 3rd and 2nd open strings, and is consistent with the fact that the first of each of these group of three notes - measures 13-16 - is a bass note, and therefore, should (or have to), preferably, be played in the three upper, bass, strings. Does this make sense to you?
1987 - Aria A558, 650/51 mm, Cedar, laminated Rosewood B&S, Nagoya, Japan
2014 - Hermanos Camps Master Nº 3, 650/52 mm, Canadian Cedar/Madagascar Rosewood B&S, Banyoles (Catalonia), Spain

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Yisrael van Handel
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Yisrael van Handel » Thu Apr 13, 2017 5:40 pm

Greeting to all members of this thread,
As you know, I have been struggling with work/life balance. I just started a new job, and in the beginning it was very hard. I am replacing someone who is on leave of absence and had to hit the ground running in a complicated situation. I have been there a month now, and have a better idea of what I am supposed to do. Because we work in agile sprints, we have tight deadlines every two weeks.
I am posting Opus 60 #6 because I have solved a lot of right-hand problems. Playing is more legato, right-hand fingers are not bumping into strings, and tone is improving. I have not made any attempt yet at interpretation beyond playing in correct rhythm, because a) I do not have a clear idea of what direction to go in and b) I first wanted to focus on right-hand issues. Please comment.
Sor_Opus_60_no01.wma
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Yisrael van Handel
Modi'in Ilit, Israel

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