Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

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Yisrael van Handel
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Yisrael van Handel » Thu Apr 13, 2017 5:47 pm

The recording that goes with my previous post.
Sor_Op60_No06.wma
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Yisrael van Handel
Modi'in Ilit, Israel

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Yisrael van Handel
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Yisrael van Handel » Fri Apr 14, 2017 11:34 am

Here is my recording of Opus 60 #7. The recording is not perfect. I do not have the time to make recordings until there are no noticeable mistakes. I notice very substantial improvement in tone and smoothness since we started this thread. I would like to thank all of you for that. I tried to maintain the beat between sections as was the style in Sor's time, that is, that the last beat of the previous section and the first beat of the next section match without gaps or slowing down. It is meant as a demonstration for Jorge who asked if it should literally be done that way, and the answer is yes. You can use dynamics to indicate the end of the section.
I am pushing myself to post to try to put some new energy into the thread.
My left-hand technique benefited enormously from this video:

Youtube
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uFjz_O9TUSA[/youtube]

It is about piano technique, but it is enormously instructive for guitarists in many ways. Pay special attention how to achieve looseness in the left hand. It works marvelous also for the guitar.
The best way to avoid errors in playing is to read ahead of where you are playing.
Please comment. It is your comments that make this thread so valuable and give me the push to tackle technical problems seriously.
Sor Op 60 #07.wma
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Yisrael van Handel
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Jorge Oliveira
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Sat Apr 15, 2017 3:13 pm

Yisrael van Handel wrote:Greeting to all members of this thread,
As you know, I have been struggling with work/life balance. I just started a new job, and in the beginning it was very hard. I am replacing someone who is on leave of absence and had to hit the ground running in a complicated situation. I have been there a month now, and have a better idea of what I am supposed to do. Because we work in agile sprints, we have tight deadlines every two weeks.
I am posting Opus 60 #6 because I have solved a lot of right-hand problems. Playing is more legato, right-hand fingers are not bumping into strings, and tone is improving. I have not made any attempt yet at interpretation beyond playing in correct rhythm, because a) I do not have a clear idea of what direction to go in and b) I first wanted to focus on right-hand issues. Please comment. Sor_Opus_60_no01.wma
Welcome back, Yisrael, I was already wandering what might have happened to you. It seems that everything is all right, fortunately, and that you were just getting to speed in your new job. I'm going to listen, now, to your recordings of the #6 and #7. By the way, the #7, for me, is the one I found more difficult to "master", so far. I may record it this weekend...

With these two entries, the table of posted records is now as follows:
Sor's Opus 60 recorded pieces as of 14Apr17.png
Note: this post was edited to include the table above.
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Last edited by Jorge Oliveira on Sat Apr 15, 2017 9:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Aria A558, 655 mm, Cedar, 1987, Nagoya, Japan
Hermanos Camps Master, 650 mm, Cedar, 2014 (Nº 3), Spain

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Jorge Oliveira
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Sat Apr 15, 2017 3:54 pm

Yisrael van Handel wrote:The recording that goes with my previous post.Sor_Op60_No06.wma
I listened to your rendition of the #6, Yisrael. The tone is good and I like the rhythm you play it, at around 1/4 = 70 bpm. I have two observations, however. The first concerns bar one, in which the second note is a B and it seems to me that you are playing an open G. The second is in bar 31, the E treble is not heard. Indeed, it has to be plucked with the left had which is a tricky thing to do. You may want to read the comments in my post concerning this #6 and this particular bar.
Aria A558, 655 mm, Cedar, 1987, Nagoya, Japan
Hermanos Camps Master, 650 mm, Cedar, 2014 (Nº 3), Spain

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Jorge Oliveira
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Sat Apr 15, 2017 4:25 pm

Yisrael van Handel wrote:Here is my recording of Opus 60 #7. The recording is not perfect. I do not have the time to make recordings until there are no noticeable mistakes. I notice very substantial improvement in tone and smoothness since we started this thread. I would like to thank all of you for that. I tried to maintain the beat between sections as was the style in Sor's time, that is, that the last beat of the previous section and the first beat of the next section match without gaps or slowing down. It is meant as a demonstration for Jorge who asked if it should literally be done that way, and the answer is yes. You can use dynamics to indicate the end of the section.
I am pushing myself to post to try to put some new energy into the thread.
My left-hand technique benefited enormously from this video:

Youtube
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uFjz_O9TUSA[/youtube]

It is about piano technique, but it is enormously instructive for guitarists in many ways. Pay special attention how to achieve looseness in the left hand. It works marvelous also for the guitar.
The best way to avoid errors in playing is to read ahead of where you are playing.
Please comment. It is your comments that make this thread so valuable and give me the push to tackle technical problems seriously.

Sor Op 60 #07.wma
Thank you, Yisrael, for clarifying my question of weather one should maintain the beat between sections. It makes sense to me and I was doing it already, but wasn't sure weather or not this interpretation of the score was too strict.

Unfortunately, I could not listen to the You Tube clip, it gives me an error.

I listened to your rendition of the #7. I liked it. One of the tricky things in this piece is acciaccatura followed by two fast notes in bar 12. You do it well and firmly. as for me, I do not always succeed in playing it clean, may be because I'm trying to play the piece a bit too fast (1/8 = 130 bpm), I may have to slow it down. Also, the change in the RH fingering in the middle of section 4 took me some time to adjust to it. I'll try to record it this weekend.
Aria A558, 655 mm, Cedar, 1987, Nagoya, Japan
Hermanos Camps Master, 650 mm, Cedar, 2014 (Nº 3), Spain

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Yisrael van Handel
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Yisrael van Handel » Sat Apr 15, 2017 6:18 pm

Jorge Oliveira wrote:
Yisrael van Handel wrote:My left-hand technique benefited enormously from this video. It is about piano technique, but it is enormously instructive for guitarists in many ways. Pay special attention how to achieve looseness in the left hand. It works marvelous also for the guitar.
Unfortunately, I could not listen to the You Tube clip, it gives me an error.
In YouTube search for "Steinway Technical Exercises." It will come up first.
Yisrael van Handel
Modi'in Ilit, Israel

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Yisrael van Handel
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Yisrael van Handel » Sat Apr 15, 2017 6:51 pm

Jorge Oliveira wrote:…please see below my rendition of this … Opus 60 #9.wma
Jorge, I do not agree with your interpretation. I would like to recommend to you Metodología de estudio para ejecución e interpretación de la guitarra clásica by Mario Amaya. It is available for free on the Internet. This is the only PRACTICAL guide to interpretation suited for intermediate amateurs that I know of. There must be others, but I have not found them. His method is totally different from Henny's, because he starts with analyzing the melody by itself. I think that that is a more productive approach than starting with analysis of the harmonics. He also explains in detail how to turn the analysis into performance practice. I am going to record #9 to demonstrate my point of view. I will start recording now, but it may take a few days until I am satisfied with the results.
Yisrael van Handel
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Jorge Oliveira
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Sat Apr 15, 2017 10:09 pm

Yisrael van Handel wrote:
Jorge Oliveira wrote:
Yisrael van Handel wrote:My left-hand technique benefited enormously from this video. It is about piano technique, but it is enormously instructive for guitarists in many ways. Pay special attention how to achieve looseness in the left hand. It works marvelous also for the guitar.
Unfortunately, I could not listen to the You Tube clip, it gives me an error.
In YouTube search for "Steinway Technical Exercises." It will come up first.
Thank you for the link, Yisrael, I'll have a look.
Yisrael van Handel wrote:
Jorge Oliveira wrote:…please see below my rendition of this … Opus 60 #9.wma
Jorge, I do not agree with your interpretation. I would like to recommend to you Metodología de estudio para ejecución e interpretación de la guitarra clásica by Mario Amaya. It is available for free on the Internet. This is the only PRACTICAL guide to interpretation suited for intermediate amateurs that I know of. There must be others, but I have not found them. His method is totally different from Henny's, because he starts with analyzing the melody by itself. I think that that is a more productive approach than starting with analysis of the harmonics. He also explains in detail how to turn the analysis into performance practice. I am going to record #9 to demonstrate my point of view. I will start recording now, but it may take a few days until I am satisfied with the results.
I've also downloaded the Mario Amaya's dissertation thesis you mention above and started reading it already. I hope it can help me to improve my play and interpretation, thank you.
Aria A558, 655 mm, Cedar, 1987, Nagoya, Japan
Hermanos Camps Master, 650 mm, Cedar, 2014 (Nº 3), Spain

Henny
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Henny » Fri Apr 21, 2017 2:50 am

Hi Yisrael, I think you played it very good, really a pleasure to hear you play this piece.
a steady good tempo, no squeaks, sound duration is good, legato almost everywhere good. clean clear tone, overall attack is evenly strong, nice ending. my compliments.

i just started to be serious about my harmony lessons: my analysis is not completely wrong, but not right. i did everything without guitar, so only from my theoretical knowledge and i will do a better study once back home.

i had no oportunity to have my guitar with me while travelling, next week i will play again.
regards,
Henny

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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Henny » Fri Apr 21, 2017 2:56 am

hi Yisrael, my comments were for Sor op 60 nr 1. to be precise. i did not yet listen more. till later.

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Yisrael van Handel
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Yisrael van Handel » Sat Apr 22, 2017 7:54 pm

Henny, good to hear that you are returning home soon.
I just wanted to let everyone know that I am working very hard on Lesson #9. It is much more difficult than the previous lessons, because it requires very good control over individual right-hand fingers to bring out the melody. It is important to watch the direction of the stems of the notes, as this determines the character of the piece. I also find the constantly shifting accents in the rhythm difficult. And finally, in measure 13, the 2 and 3 fingers have to switch strings, which I am finding difficult for some reason. I am making good progress, but not suitable for posting yet. Just wanted to let you know that I am working on the next post. If those you have that have been here already (Lesson 9) have any suggestions, they are welcome.
Yisrael van Handel
Modi'in Ilit, Israel

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Yisrael van Handel
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Yisrael van Handel » Sat Apr 22, 2017 8:06 pm

Jorge Oliveira wrote:I listened to your rendition of the #6, Yisrael. I have two observations, however. The first concerns bar one, in which the second note is a B and it seems to me that you are playing an open G. The second is in bar 31, the E treble is not heard. Indeed, it has to be plucked with the left had which is a tricky thing to do. You may want to read the comments in my post concerning this #6 and this particular bar.
Jorge, I have been meaning to respond to your post. The reason that do not get excited about an occasional missed note is because I am working on improvement of right- and left-hand technique. I am more concerned about what an audience will hear than a small deviation from the score. My teacher agrees with you. He thinks that missed notes are inexcusable, while developing technique can be forgiven if it is not smooth. I just cannot get myself to think this way. I do appreciate your pointing out the missed notes, and I do intend to fix them, but I do not rerecord the piece because I am more interested in what I can learn in the next lesson. By the way, I am very impressed with the thought that Sor has put into these lessons. I see clear technical progress from piece to piece, and I see that I am improving my skills very much with these lessons.
Yisrael van Handel
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Jorge Oliveira
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Sun Apr 23, 2017 10:06 pm

Yisrael van Handel wrote:... By the way, I am very impressed with the thought that Sor has put into these lessons. I see clear technical progress from piece to piece, and I see that I am improving my skills very much with these lessons.
Fully agree, Yisrael, since I started with this Opus I feel I've improved my play a lot. I'll post today the #7 and the #10 will follow soon, it's almost ready :D.
Aria A558, 655 mm, Cedar, 1987, Nagoya, Japan
Hermanos Camps Master, 650 mm, Cedar, 2014 (Nº 3), Spain

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Jorge Oliveira
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Sun Apr 23, 2017 11:26 pm

At last I'm posting Sor's Opus 60 #7 for you all to listen to and comment. As usual, the record was produced with the Zoom Handy Recorder app on my iPhone, the sound capture being made by an iRig microphone that connects directly to the iPhone. The guitar used was my Hermanos Camps Master with Konobloch Actives Carbon CX, High Tension strings (already three months and eleven days old, and still fine :D). The resulting .wav file was then processed with the Audacity audio editor on Windows 10 to produce the .wma file below. Up to know I've included in posts with a new rendition, all the records made so far. I'm realizing, however, that by including the complete list, the posts are getting bigger all the time, and perhaps, unnecessarily so. I decided, therefore, to do as everybody else does and publish only the current recorded piece . Comments, as usual, shall be in green):

Sor’s Opus 60, Nº 7. Learning period: 08Mar17 - 23Apr17 Comment: by far, this was the piece I found more difficult to "master" up to now. :shock:
Sor, Fernando - Opus 60 #7.wma
So, now, the table of posted studies is the following:
Sor's Opus 60 recorded pieces as of 24Apr17.png
My next self-assignment is to post a sound file of the #10 study.
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Last edited by Jorge Oliveira on Tue Apr 25, 2017 6:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Aria A558, 655 mm, Cedar, 1987, Nagoya, Japan
Hermanos Camps Master, 650 mm, Cedar, 2014 (Nº 3), Spain

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Jorge Oliveira
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Mon Apr 24, 2017 9:38 am

Yisrael van Handel wrote:...
I just wanted to let everyone know that I am working very hard on Lesson #9. It is much more difficult than the previous lessons, because it requires very good control over individual right-hand fingers to bring out the melody. It is important to watch the direction of the stems of the notes, as this determines the character of the piece. I also find the constantly shifting accents in the rhythm difficult. And finally, in measure 13, the 2 and 3 fingers have to switch strings, which I am finding difficult for some reason. I am making good progress, but not suitable for posting yet. Just wanted to let you know that I am working on the next post. If those you have that have been here already (Lesson 9) have any suggestions, they are welcome.
Yisrael, you asked for advice on the #9 and I have the following:
  1. Start with the #8. It works as an introduction to the #9. The tones are the same - the LH positioning is practically the same but the RH fingering is clearly less demanding.
  2. Measure 13, as you pointed out, is clearly the most problematic. Here, the difficulty lies more on the LH as the finger transitions have to occur very fast. To overcome this, I relied on on a "trick" which I explained in my post of 31-Mar-17. May be you would like to see what I wrote there.
Aria A558, 655 mm, Cedar, 1987, Nagoya, Japan
Hermanos Camps Master, 650 mm, Cedar, 2014 (Nº 3), Spain

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