Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Discussions relating to the classical guitar which don't fit elsewhere.
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Jorge Oliveira
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Location: Cascais, Portugal

Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Mon Apr 24, 2017 10:31 pm

I'm posting Sor's Opus 60 #10 for you all to listen to and comment. As usual, the record was produced with the Zoom Handy Recorder app on my iPhone, the sound capture being made by an iRig microphone that connects directly to the iPhone. The guitar used was my Hermanos Camps Master with Konobloch Actives Carbon CX, High Tension strings. The resulting .wav file was then processed with the Audacity audio editor on Windows 10 to produce the .wma file below. My impressions of this piece are, as usual, in green:

Sor’s Opus 60, Nº 10. Learning period: 21Mar17 - 24Apr17 Comment: a beautiful piece, indeed. Easy to play :D.
Sor, Fernando - Opus 60 #10.wma
So, now, the table of posted studies is the following:
Sor's Opus 60 recorded pieces as of 24Apr17.png
My next self-assignment is to post a sound file of the #11 study.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
1972 - Kuniharu Nobe #8, 658/51, Spruce, RW B&S, Tokio, Japan
1987 - Aria A558, 650/51 mm, Cedar, laminated RW B&S, Nagoya, Japan
2014 - Hermanos Camps Master Nº 3, 650/52 mm, Canadian Cedar, Madagascar RW B&S, Banyoles, Spain

titanensee
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Joined: Thu Apr 27, 2017 10:47 am
Location: Germany

Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by titanensee » Fri Apr 28, 2017 8:00 am

Great idea and I am still thinking if I also should try to complete the whole Opus 60.

Why I am hesitating? I am learning classical guitar by my own and I need already a lot of time to play the first piece of Opus 60...meaning: with my current speed it would take a year to complete the whole Opus...:-)

But I think I will continue, maybe speed comes after some addtional weeks of practicing...and the recordings posted hear are a great tool for me to "play along"...meaning: please continue uploading recordings. They will be of help for beginners such me.

Thx a lot, Daniel

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Jorge Oliveira
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Location: Cascais, Portugal

Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Fri Apr 28, 2017 12:31 pm

There is no hurry, Daniel, you are most welcome to join the Project at any time, post your records, ask questions about any particular piece and comment records posted in this Topic. And you are right, you will see your proficiency increasing as you go along. The pieces of this Opus 60 were designed by Fernando Sor, already late in his life, for people like you and me, mostly beginners. I, for instance, have posted 10 records so far - pieces from 1 to 10 - and this has taken me almost 5 months (the Project started early December 2016). And as you can see in the table of posted records, others have posted more and others, less. As of me, I think I'll need even more than a year to complete all the 25 pieces of Sor's Opus 60. I am now tackling the #11 and, may be, I´ll post a record of it next week.

Best regards,

Jorge
1972 - Kuniharu Nobe #8, 658/51, Spruce, RW B&S, Tokio, Japan
1987 - Aria A558, 650/51 mm, Cedar, laminated RW B&S, Nagoya, Japan
2014 - Hermanos Camps Master Nº 3, 650/52 mm, Canadian Cedar, Madagascar RW B&S, Banyoles, Spain

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Jorge Oliveira
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Location: Cascais, Portugal

Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Fri Apr 28, 2017 6:24 pm

Henny wrote:i hope you can enjoy 1 minute of Sor nr 11Sor Op.60_11.wma
Hi Henny:

I'm now rehearsing Sor's Opus 60 #11 and went back to listen to your rendition. I apologise for disturbing you during your holidays, but I have two questions that you might consider upon your return home:
  1. I noticed that you repeated the first section (measures 1-8). I'm using the Chanterelle edition of Sor's The Complete Studies for Guitar and in this edition there is no repeat sign for this section. I looked in Delcamps's archive of original scores, and also in there, there is not a repeat sign in the section. Did you do it on purpose (the section is beautiful indeed, it deserves to be repeated :D), or are you following an edition where there is a repeat sign in this section?
  2. Also in the Chanterelle edition, in the second triplet of measure 18, the A and C notes are preceded by Sharps within parenthesis(!) - [#] -, which are then cleared by Natural signs (not enclosed in parenthesis), right in the first triplet of the following measure. No such notation exists in the original score. What might be the meaning of it? Never seen it before... Do you also have it in your score? Apparently not, listening to your rendition, the second triplet of measure 18 and the three following ones are played the same...
Best regards,

Jorge
1972 - Kuniharu Nobe #8, 658/51, Spruce, RW B&S, Tokio, Japan
1987 - Aria A558, 650/51 mm, Cedar, laminated RW B&S, Nagoya, Japan
2014 - Hermanos Camps Master Nº 3, 650/52 mm, Canadian Cedar, Madagascar RW B&S, Banyoles, Spain

Henny
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Location: Amsterdam

Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Henny » Sun Apr 30, 2017 6:42 pm

Hi Jorge,

yes, i played the first section twice because i like it that way.
i prefer to send you the score in a private message so you can see what i play as in the score.
my score is from Boije and i do not have any other edition.

At the moment I am back home from Holiday
unfortunately i have a back injury and cannot play for at least a week.
i started to do more harmony lessons during my holiday and this now takes me more time then before.
my aim is to make a video of some of my previous pieces of Sor. op 60.

I listened to your nr 10, well done
one comment: the beginning is too hasty..you need to give a longer value to the 2 note.
play it with a metronome and pay close attention to the beginning of the rhythm of that first phrase which comes back later in the piece.

I welcome Daniel.
great to join

joannes

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Jorge Oliveira
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Thu May 04, 2017 11:26 am

Dear Friends:

As usual, there follows some statistical data concerning your participation in this thread for the last month, April 2017.
Delcamp Forum, Sor's Opus 60 thread - Apr_2017.png
Those in Amber are Forum Members who posted for the first time in this Topic in April. Those with zero posts, posted sometime in the past but not in April. Nevertheless, as already said, their names will be kept in the graph so we all know whom ever was interested in this Topic.

The following graphic present the daily ramp up of posts and views for the last month:
Delcamp Forum, Sor's Opus 60 thread, posts and views - Apr_2017.png

Finally, the next graph depicts the total number of monthly posts and views since this Topic was initiated in December 2016.
Delcamp Forum, Sor's Opus 60 thread - Montlhy Posts & Views_Dec16-Apr17.png
Apparently, the participation in this Topic seems to be going down. Let's hope we see a reverse of this trend this month, May-17 :).

I thank you all, again, for your support to this Project.

Jorge
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
1972 - Kuniharu Nobe #8, 658/51, Spruce, RW B&S, Tokio, Japan
1987 - Aria A558, 650/51 mm, Cedar, laminated RW B&S, Nagoya, Japan
2014 - Hermanos Camps Master Nº 3, 650/52 mm, Canadian Cedar, Madagascar RW B&S, Banyoles, Spain

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Yisrael van Handel
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Location: Modi'in Illit, Israel

Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Yisrael van Handel » Thu May 04, 2017 9:15 pm

Henny wrote:
Sun Apr 30, 2017 6:42 pm
Hi Jorge,
At the moment I am back home from Holiday
unfortunately i have a back injury and cannot play for at least a week.
joannes
Henny, great to have you back. I am concerned about the declining energy in this topic, but I hope some of it is temporary. My community is in a month of mourning (yearly religious event) during which it is the custom not to play music. It is always a very difficult period for me, because music is so much part of my life. I am playing exercises right now, but not playing, recording, or posting pieces. I have solved most of my problems in #9, but just didn't manage to record it before the period of mourning started. I expect to do that as soon as it ends (May 28). Meanwhile, I am trying to participate in the forum in other ways.
By the way, I found #9 to be great didactic piece. It requires much more control in the right hand than any of the previous pieces, and with that control in the right hand, the following 5 or 6 pieces are not difficult. So I have to make good progress in June. I have also discovered the way to get rid of nail click and thin tone. You have to plant your finger on the string not so that you touch the flesh and the nail simultaneously: that produces horrible tone and nail click; you have to plant and press down the string; only when the string is pressed and you are ready to release it, the string should meet the nail. Then, if your attack is correct, you will release the string instantly without nail click and with good, solid round tone. I have been playing for 50 years without discovering this or even hearing it discussed.
Yisrael van Handel
Modi'in Ilit, Israel

Dan Seufert
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Location: Columbus, OH, USA

Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Dan Seufert » Fri May 05, 2017 12:56 am

Hi, I just wanted to thank you folks for this thread- I come upon in every now and again and it is a good reminder to get back to this Opus. I was studying #1 for a while a year or so back, and I tried my hand at #5 this evening. I noticed the concern about participation a couple posts above, so here's my 2 cents worth for reversing the trend.

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Yisrael van Handel
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Location: Modi'in Illit, Israel

Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Yisrael van Handel » Fri May 05, 2017 8:29 am

Dan Seufert wrote:
Fri May 05, 2017 12:56 am
Hi, I just wanted to thank you folks for this thread- I come upon in every now and again and it is a good reminder to get back to this Opus. I was studying #1 for a while a year or so back, and I tried my hand at #5 this evening. I noticed the concern about participation a couple posts above, so here's my 2 cents worth for reversing the trend.
Hi, Dan. I encourage you to post recordings here and we will give our comments. We are, like you, amateurs (with an occasional exception of a serious musician who drops by and makes comments), but we help each other. I have this tremendously beneficial. My playing has improved faster since I started participating in this forum than in any previous period that I can remember.
Yisrael van Handel
Modi'in Ilit, Israel

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Jorge Oliveira
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Fri May 05, 2017 10:34 am

Yisrael van Handel wrote:
Thu May 04, 2017 9:15 pm
...
Henny, great to have you back. I am concerned about the declining energy in this topic, but I hope some of it is temporary. My community is in a month of mourning (yearly religious event) during which it is the custom not to play music. It is always a very difficult period for me, because music is so much part of my life. I am playing exercises right now, but not playing, recording, or posting pieces. I have solved most of my problems in #9, but just didn't manage to record it before the period of mourning started. I expect to do that as soon as it ends (May 28). Meanwhile, I am trying to participate in the forum in other ways.
By the way, I found #9 to be great didactic piece. It requires much more control in the right hand than any of the previous pieces, and with that control in the right hand, the following 5 or 6 pieces are not difficult. So I have to make good progress in June. I have also discovered the way to get rid of nail click and thin tone. You have to plant your finger on the string not so that you touch the flesh and the nail simultaneously: that produces horrible tone and nail click; you have to plant and press down the string; only when the string is pressed and you are ready to release it, the string should meet the nail. Then, if your attack is correct, you will release the string instantly without nail click and with good, solid round tone. I have been playing for 50 years without discovering this or even hearing it discussed.
Hi, Yisrael, good to hear from you again. I did not know about the period of mourning and the its restriction concerning playing music. I can imagine how difficult that is for you. But then, well, at our age, three weeks will go by in no time :D, and I look forward to hear your rendition of the #9. I'm now in the #11 trying to increase the the beat. I'm now at 1/8 = 215 bpm, but I've seen it being played faster and I'm curious to know how far can I go.

I read with interest your remarks concerning nail click and thin tone. I'm a bit surprised that you felt the need to improve your tone, as I always liked the tone of your records of Sor pieces so far. I have to compare the way I naturally tackle the strings with what you say above, I may improve myself. Nevertheless, I wonder if the nail click you mention is not related with the angle between your fingers and the strings and the length and shape of the nails themselves. I, for instance, file my nails so as to achieve a moon like shape. But there are other ways. See, for instance, this video and, perhaps, even more interesting, this article.
1972 - Kuniharu Nobe #8, 658/51, Spruce, RW B&S, Tokio, Japan
1987 - Aria A558, 650/51 mm, Cedar, laminated RW B&S, Nagoya, Japan
2014 - Hermanos Camps Master Nº 3, 650/52 mm, Canadian Cedar, Madagascar RW B&S, Banyoles, Spain

Henny
Posts: 144
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Location: Amsterdam

Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Henny » Mon May 08, 2017 9:17 am

Hi all,
i have not given up to continue posting recordings which will be delayed for now but
as i have mentioned before i want to fill the gap in my theory/analysis,
for this reason i have decided to take an annual online course with Simon Powis where i am now following
Theory and Improvisation starting with the level 1-3 course to fill the gap in my knowledge.
my aim is to improve my playing and i have noticed my decision is the best for me at this moment.
see for a good understanding of my decision the following link of Kevin Gallagher: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UmaZYjZq7Tg
where he explains the benefits and goes into Analysis of Sor work.
joannes

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Jorge Oliveira
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Mon May 08, 2017 10:15 am

I listened to the full clip of Kevin Gallagher, Joannes, and I regret more and more not to have had the opportunity of studying music at the proper age. It may be too late now but, nevertheless, something will trickle in as I go along. Indeed, this thread has been of tremendous value to me. Before it I was just selecting, randomly, little pieces from classic and romantic composers to learn, but without any guiding, it was just a repertoire building and not much more. Things are changing now a little bit and, who knows, one of these days I'll be taking lessons as well :).
1972 - Kuniharu Nobe #8, 658/51, Spruce, RW B&S, Tokio, Japan
1987 - Aria A558, 650/51 mm, Cedar, laminated RW B&S, Nagoya, Japan
2014 - Hermanos Camps Master Nº 3, 650/52 mm, Canadian Cedar, Madagascar RW B&S, Banyoles, Spain

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Jorge Oliveira
Posts: 407
Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2016 4:17 pm
Location: Cascais, Portugal

Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Mon May 08, 2017 6:11 pm

I'm posting Sor's Opus 60 #110 for you all to listen to and comment. As usual, the record was produced with the Zoom Handy Recorder app on my iPhone, the sound capture being made by an iRig microphone that connects directly to the iPhone. The guitar used was my Hermanos Camps Master with Konobloch Actives Carbon CX, High Tension strings. The resulting .wav file was then processed with the Audacity audio editor on Windows 10 to produce the .wma file below. My impressions of this piece are, as usual, in green:

Sor’s Opus 60, Nº 11. Learning period: 25Apr17 - 08May17 Comment: It is a beautiful piece, indeed, and not difficult to play. It took me some time to memorize it, but once done, I just spent a week or so increasing the beat up to around 1/8 = 225 bpm. I've seen others playing it faster, and I did try to go up to 235 bpm, but, at this speed, I simply did too many mistakes :D.
Sor, Fernando - Opus 60 #11.wma

So, now, the table of posted studies is the following:
Sor's Opus 60 recorded pieces as of 08May17.png
My next self-assignment is to post a sound file of the #12 study.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
1972 - Kuniharu Nobe #8, 658/51, Spruce, RW B&S, Tokio, Japan
1987 - Aria A558, 650/51 mm, Cedar, laminated RW B&S, Nagoya, Japan
2014 - Hermanos Camps Master Nº 3, 650/52 mm, Canadian Cedar, Madagascar RW B&S, Banyoles, Spain

Lawler
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Lawler » Mon May 08, 2017 10:38 pm

Jorge, I enjoyed your playing of No. 11. I'd suggest re-visiting the downbeat of measure 16, and the harmony there. The lower note should be an F# (the recording has an F natural).

But I have to say that I'd rather hear an expressive wrong note than a heartless accurate note.

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Jorge Oliveira
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Mon May 08, 2017 11:28 pm

Lawler wrote:
Mon May 08, 2017 10:38 pm
Jorge, I enjoyed your playing of No. 11. I'd suggest re-visiting the downbeat of measure 16, and the harmony there. The lower note should be an F# (the recording has an F natural).
Hi, Lawler:

Thanks for listening to my rendition of the #11 and for your remarks. Gosh, you are right, I'm playing a natural F in measure 16, instead of an F#. I just checked in the guitar and with the F# the accord sounds much better. In reality - would you believe? - when listening to the record I had done I noticed something was was not entirely right and even went back to the guitar to make sure I was playing the "right" notes. Well, a truly sympathy error that I would not have discovered by myself...:(. I'm going to correct this mistake and produce a new record as soon as possible.

As for the harmonics in the same measure, I would appreciate you would check if I'm doing it right. I have the Chanterelle edition of Sor's studies and I'm using the E string on the 5ht fret to produce the harmonic indicated in measure 16. It sounds nice, however, I've seen in Youtube other players producing it in different positions of the fretboard so I'm not entirely sure. would you confirm, please?

Best regards,

Jorge
1972 - Kuniharu Nobe #8, 658/51, Spruce, RW B&S, Tokio, Japan
1987 - Aria A558, 650/51 mm, Cedar, laminated RW B&S, Nagoya, Japan
2014 - Hermanos Camps Master Nº 3, 650/52 mm, Canadian Cedar, Madagascar RW B&S, Banyoles, Spain

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