Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Discussions relating to the classical guitar which don't fit elsewhere.
Lawler
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Lawler » Mon May 08, 2017 11:55 pm

Jorge Oliveira wrote:
Mon May 08, 2017 11:28 pm

Hi, Lawler:

Thanks for listening to my rendition of the #11 and for your remarks.
You're very welcome, Jorge. I love the student repertoire, playing and listening.

Henny
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Henny » Tue May 09, 2017 10:47 am

hi Jorge, well done, i am sure with the notes corrected you are doing also well.
you made a lot of progress since we started.
good in speed, good rhythm , good tone.
you worked quite a lot because i remember it takes quite some time to do it right.
I will stay connected with you all, and will probably take the same pace with my recordings as ou do , it makes it also
good for me so we do the same

Henny
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Henny » Tue May 09, 2017 11:00 am

:D

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Jorge Oliveira
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Tue May 09, 2017 11:45 am

Thank you, Joannes, for your kind and encouraging words. Yes, no doubt, I've learned a lot with this thread. I remember the first days, with the initial pieces, and how difficult it was for me to "master" them at the time. Nowadays, a new piece will take me, roughly, a couple of weeks to prepare for record, unless something happens in my daily life that interferes too much with my routine (as, for instance, my daughter and grandchildren coming over from England to stay some days with us... :D).

Concerning this little piece, the #11, there remains the question of the harmonic in measure 16. I have the Chanterelle edition of Sor's studies, and, in this edition, the harmonic is indicated as follows:
Sor's Opus 60 #11, measure 16.png
Now, there are lots of ways to represent harmonics in a score, and I've seen on the You Tube this particular harmonic being played in different locations of the fretboard. My interpretation of the score is that it should be produced in the 5ht fret of the E string. Is this your interpretation as well? Please, let me know.

Best regards,

Jorge
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Last edited by Jorge Oliveira on Tue May 09, 2017 1:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
1972 - Kuniharu Nobe #8, 658/51, Spr, RW B&S, Tokio, JPN (under repair)
1979 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.40
1987 - Aria A558, 650/51, Ced, lam RW B&S, Nagoya, JPN
2014 - Hermanos Camps Master Nº 3, 650/52, CAN Ced, MDG RW B&S, Banyoles, ESP

khayes
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by khayes » Tue May 09, 2017 1:20 pm

Post removed - I think I may have accidentally intruded on the conversation between Jorge and Joannes.
Ken

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Jorge Oliveira
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Tue May 09, 2017 2:37 pm

khayes wrote:
Tue May 09, 2017 1:20 pm
Post removed - I think I may have accidentally intruded on the conversation between Jorge and Joannes.
Didn't see your post, Khayes, but don't worry, conversations in this thread are quite open and I welcome you to comment my posts as you like, specially if they pertain my question on the harmonic in measure 16 of Sor's Opus 60 #11... :D
1972 - Kuniharu Nobe #8, 658/51, Spr, RW B&S, Tokio, JPN (under repair)
1979 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.40
1987 - Aria A558, 650/51, Ced, lam RW B&S, Nagoya, JPN
2014 - Hermanos Camps Master Nº 3, 650/52, CAN Ced, MDG RW B&S, Banyoles, ESP

khayes
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by khayes » Tue May 09, 2017 4:23 pm

OK since you asked, the harmonic is 12th fret on the D string.
Ken

EricKatz
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by EricKatz » Tue May 09, 2017 4:52 pm

According to the Op.60 Dünst-edition (Birkel-Smith collection at IMSLP) and Brian Jeffery Sor- editions it's the 5th fret on the D- string. That produces a second octave. 12th fret gives an octave.

Lawler
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Lawler » Tue May 09, 2017 5:18 pm

That harmonic in bar 16 of No.11 needs to be the pitch, D. The 4th string harmonic at fret 5 or 12 will produce a D, just at different octaves. Your edition, though, notes 5th position at that spot (Roman numeral V).

And speaking of harmony, Jorge, when you listen to a recording of No.11 can you tell by ear when the tonic and dominant harmonies are occurring?

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Jorge Oliveira
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Tue May 09, 2017 7:14 pm

Jorge Oliveira wrote:
Tue May 09, 2017 11:45 am
...
Concerning this little piece, the #11, there remains the question of the harmonic in measure 16. I have the Chanterelle edition of Sor's studies, and, in this edition, the harmonic is indicated as follows:
Sor's Opus 60 #11, measure 16.png
Now, there are lots of ways to represent harmonics in a score, and I've seen on the You Tube this particular harmonic being played in different locations of the fretboard. My interpretation of the score is that it should be produced in the the E string on the 5ht fret to produce. Is this your interpretation as well? Please, let me know.
...
First of all, I apologise for a small mistake in my last phrase above. Where I said in the 5ht fret of the E string, I meant to say in the 5th fret of the D (4th) string.

Secondly, I want to thank you all, khayes, EricKatz and Lawler for your comments and help. It seems, therefore, that I was interpreting the score correctly, the harmonic is to be produced on fret 5 of the D string.

But indeed, khayes, I've seen it on You Tube being produced as you said, on the 12th fret of the D string. However, in what looks to be an original edition at Delcamp's archives (image below) the author seems to indicate explicitly fret 5.
Sor's Opus 60 #11, measure 16_original.png
Is it possible that you have an edition stating that the harmonic should be produced in the 12th fret?
Lawler wrote:
Tue May 09, 2017 5:18 pm
...
And speaking of harmony, Jorge, when you listen to a recording of No.11 can you tell by ear when the tonic and dominant harmonies are occurring?
I'm not sure I understand your question, Lawler, but yes, when I'm playing I know when there is a change in the tone. For instance, in the the first section, the measures alternate between G Major (the Tonic) and 7th of D (the Dominant). I can distinguish this clearly. And when you move to the second section, up to the harmonic, the music changes to A Major: the first measure is D Major (Sub-dominant of A Major), the second is E Minor, the third is A Major (the Tonic), etc... Don't know if this is what you asked... :)
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1972 - Kuniharu Nobe #8, 658/51, Spr, RW B&S, Tokio, JPN (under repair)
1979 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.40
1987 - Aria A558, 650/51, Ced, lam RW B&S, Nagoya, JPN
2014 - Hermanos Camps Master Nº 3, 650/52, CAN Ced, MDG RW B&S, Banyoles, ESP

khayes
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by khayes » Tue May 09, 2017 7:33 pm

I'm blaming my poor eyesight for missing the 5th fret indicator :)
Ken

Lawler
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Lawler » Tue May 09, 2017 9:43 pm

Jorge Oliveira wrote:
Tue May 09, 2017 7:14 pm
...I'm not sure I understand your question, Lawler, but yes, when I'm playing I know when there is a change in the tone. For instance, in the the first section, the measures alternate between G Major (the Tonic) and 7th of D (the Dominant). I can distinguish this clearly.
Yes, I was asking if you can identify tonic and dominant harmonies by sound, without looking at the notation.
And when you move to the second section, up to the harmonic, the music changes to A Major: the first measure is D Major (Sub-dominant of A Major), the second is E Minor, the third is A Major (the Tonic), etc...
Starting at measure 9, it's an interesting phrase, harmonically - all played over a D pedal point. I don't hear it in A major, but I commend you for listening for these aspects in the piece. You're doing what Sor recommends in his method - trying to be aware of what's actually there, sonically, in the music - playing as a musician and not just a "note-reader", as Sor calls it.

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Jorge Oliveira
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Tue May 09, 2017 10:35 pm

Lawler wrote:
Tue May 09, 2017 9:43 pm
...
Starting at measure 9, it's an interesting phrase, harmonically - all played over a D pedal point. I don't hear it in A major, but I commend you for listening for these aspects in the piece. You're doing what Sor recommends in his method - trying to be aware of what's actually there, sonically, in the music - playing as a musician and not just a "note-reader", as Sor calls it.
Thank you for your comments, Lawler. Reviewing my remarks on the second section of this #11, I agree with you that D is a better fit (pedal point?). Indeed, the first measure is D Major (Tonic), the second measure is basically A Major (similar to the A 7th), the third is G Major (Sub-dominant), etc... Anyway, you should know that, unfortunately, I did not have a formal musical education so I'm not that much conversant with all these details. Nevertheless, I'm very much pleased that you feel I'm doing as Sor recommended. In fact, I'm always trying to see which accord best fits with the notes in the score so that I can "arm" the corresponding finger positions, staying there for as long as possible, thus avoiding unnecessary LH finger movements. A typical example is Sor's Opus 60 #10, first section, the pedal point being C. Indeed, the first section alternates basically between C Major (Tonic) and G 7th, with a brief foray into E Minor and F Major (Sub-dominant) towards the end. In this piece I just move from one position to another, barely moving my LH fingers, most of the work being done by the RH.
1972 - Kuniharu Nobe #8, 658/51, Spr, RW B&S, Tokio, JPN (under repair)
1979 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.40
1987 - Aria A558, 650/51, Ced, lam RW B&S, Nagoya, JPN
2014 - Hermanos Camps Master Nº 3, 650/52, CAN Ced, MDG RW B&S, Banyoles, ESP

Lawler
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Lawler » Tue May 09, 2017 11:55 pm

You're welcome.
Jorge Oliveira wrote:
Tue May 09, 2017 10:35 pm
...pedal point?
You may have looked it up by now but a pedal point is a composition technique that uses a repeating pitch in the bass line while the harmony above it is changing. In some instances it can create a mysterious and very expressive effect. In some instances it's a way for the composer to hit us over the head, so to speak, with the importance of a certain functional point in the harmony.

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Jorge Oliveira
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Wed May 10, 2017 9:45 am

khayes wrote:
Tue May 09, 2017 7:33 pm
I'm blaming my poor eyesight for missing the 5th fret indicator :)
No, Ken, don't blame your "poor eyesight", it also happens to me a lot (not that I have the eyes of an eagle myself, quite the contrary... :)) - things are rightly under your nose but, once you have "seen" them differently, no matter how many times you go through them again, you keep missing what really is in there. It's called a sympathy error and you realise your mistake only when someone else calls your attention to it... :D
1972 - Kuniharu Nobe #8, 658/51, Spr, RW B&S, Tokio, JPN (under repair)
1979 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.40
1987 - Aria A558, 650/51, Ced, lam RW B&S, Nagoya, JPN
2014 - Hermanos Camps Master Nº 3, 650/52, CAN Ced, MDG RW B&S, Banyoles, ESP

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