Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Discussions relating to the classical guitar which don't fit elsewhere.
User avatar
Jorge Oliveira
Posts: 353
Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2016 4:17 pm
Location: Cascais, Portugal

Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Sat Jun 10, 2017 4:53 pm

Jorge Oliveira wrote:
Mon Jun 05, 2017 2:57 pm
Hi Henny:
.
.
.
As for the #1, I do play it today in a more fluent way than before. May be I'll post a new recording of it paying attention to your comments. Many thanks again,

Jorge
Hi Henni:
There you are, as promised, a record of the #1 as I play it now - a bit faster and more secure than when I posted it for the first time, back in December of last year. Let me know, please, what you think of it.

Sor’s Opus 60, Nº 1. Comment: contrary to what is recommended in the Chanterelle edition of Sor's "The complete Studies for Guitar", I've abandoned the usage of the thumb to pluck any notes in the first three strings, I've reserved the a, m and i fingers, exclusively, for such notes. The reason for this is that I don't use the nail in the thumb, only the skin on its tip, so, the tone comes out quite different from those of the other fingers. Also, the volume was, most of the times, disproportionately stronger.
Sor, Fernando - Opus 60 #1 (V4).wma

Best regards,

Jorge
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Aria A558, 655 mm, Cedar, 1987, Nagoya, Japan
Hermanos Camps Master, 650 mm, Cedar, 2014 (Nº 3), Spain

Henny
Posts: 135
Joined: Sat Sep 10, 2016 5:47 pm
Location: Amsterdam

Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Henny » Sun Jun 11, 2017 4:28 am

hi Jorge,

very well done, a big improvement. I can hear the first bars connecting well and give the piece a flow till the end also because the tempo is now raised.
keep listening for the 'Beaty playing' and legato in your recordings, it is one of the things that needs working on all the time.

welcome back Yisrael,
good to see you are doing well.
as i have told before i am filling the cap in my knowledge about theory and analysis.
it slows me down to participate with uploads but i will try to upload again.

joannes

User avatar
Yisrael van Handel
Posts: 491
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2012 5:26 pm
Location: Modi'in Illit, Israel

Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Yisrael van Handel » Fri Jun 16, 2017 10:44 am

Sor, Opus 60, #09.
I have learned more from this piece than any other I have ever played. I completely redid my right-hand technique to improve tone and to make the melody smooth and singing. Käppel's Playing techniques of 21st Century Guitar was very helpful.
Please comment. We are here to learn.
Sor_Op60_No09.wma
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Yisrael van Handel
Modi'in Ilit, Israel

User avatar
Yisrael van Handel
Posts: 491
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2012 5:26 pm
Location: Modi'in Illit, Israel

Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Yisrael van Handel » Fri Jun 16, 2017 11:26 am

Sor Opus 60 #10
This exercise builds on the skills of the previous one. What helped me here is to plan the right-hand fingering well and stick to it rigidly. Otherwise it is very easy to play wrong notes.
Please comment. We are here to learn.
Sor Op 60 #10.wma
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Yisrael van Handel
Modi'in Ilit, Israel

User avatar
Jorge Oliveira
Posts: 353
Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2016 4:17 pm
Location: Cascais, Portugal

Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Fri Jun 16, 2017 11:44 am

Yisrael van Handel wrote:
Fri Jun 16, 2017 10:44 am
Sor, Opus 60, #09.
I have learned more from this piece than any other I have ever played. I completely redid my right-hand technique to improve tone and to make the melody smooth and singing. Käppel's Playing techniques of 21st Century Guitar was very helpful.
Please comment. We are here to learn.
Sor_Op60_No09.wma
Beautifully played, Yisrael, and what an wonderful tone! I tend to play this piece a bit faster but, in doing so, I'm afraid some notes get mixed up, they don't come as clear and distinguishable as in your rendition. I'm going to try to slow it down a little bit and see what comes out to it. By the way, what about your rendition of the #8? Did I miss it or you really have not yet posted it? You know, it is much, much simpler than the #9... :).

You this entry of yours, the table of posted studies is now the following:
Sor's Opus 60 recorded pieces as of 16Jun17.png
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Aria A558, 655 mm, Cedar, 1987, Nagoya, Japan
Hermanos Camps Master, 650 mm, Cedar, 2014 (Nº 3), Spain

User avatar
Jorge Oliveira
Posts: 353
Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2016 4:17 pm
Location: Cascais, Portugal

Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Fri Jun 16, 2017 12:28 pm

Yisrael van Handel wrote:
Fri Jun 16, 2017 11:26 am
Sor Opus 60 #10
This exercise builds on the skills of the previous one. What helped me here is to plan the right-hand fingering well and stick to it rigidly. Otherwise it is very easy to play wrong notes.
Please comment. We are here to learn.Sor Op 60 #10.wma
Yes, also nicely played, Yisrael, good tone, I enjoyed listening to it. Did you notice that if you place your LH fingers in the position of C major position, measures 1 and 3 fit completely and then it is only a question of a proper fingering in your RH? By the way, please check the 4th note in measures 2 and 6. In my Chanterelle edition of Sor's Studies it is a B (in the 2nd string) and I think you are playing a C, instead. Also, I'm not sure you are treating the 5th note of measure 2, a D, as a quarter note, the transition to the following one, an F, seems to me to be a bit faster than it should be.

With your rendition of the #10, the table of posted studies is now the following:
Sor's Opus 60 recorded pieces as of 16Jun17.png
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Aria A558, 655 mm, Cedar, 1987, Nagoya, Japan
Hermanos Camps Master, 650 mm, Cedar, 2014 (Nº 3), Spain

User avatar
Jorge Oliveira
Posts: 353
Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2016 4:17 pm
Location: Cascais, Portugal

Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Wed Jun 21, 2017 10:52 am

Tom Poore wrote:Hi Tom, it's Jorge. Sorry for misquoting you but I'm referring to your musical analysis of Sor's Opus 60 nr. 13 in my post below and I thought you might be interested in reading it.
I'm now posting Sor's Opus 60 #13 for you all to listen to and comment. As usual, the record was produced with the Zoom Handy Recorder app on my iPhone, the sound capture being made by an iRig microphone that connects directly to the iPhone. The guitar used was my Hermanos Camps Master with Konobloch Actives Carbon CX, High Tension strings (5 months and 9 days old already, but still going ok, I think). The resulting .wav file was then processed with the Audacity audio editor on Windows 10 to produce the .wma file below. My impressions of this piece are, as usual, in green:

Sor’s Opus 60, Nº 13. Learning period: 28May17 - 20Jun17 Comment: This composition is not difficult to play. Nevertheless, it took me three weeks to have it ready to post, more than usual due to distractions of all sort to my practice (replacing the windows of my apartment, grandchildren, an horrible heatwave, etc... :D). In my rendition of this little piece I'm following Tom Poore's "edition" of the standard score, where he puts a repeat sign at the end of measure 8 - see, please, here, his musical analysis of this piece. His explanation makes sense and the piece sounds quite nice played this way.
Sor, Fernando - Opus 60 #13.wma

So, now, the table of posted studies is the following:
Sor's Opus 60 recorded pieces as of 21Jun17.png
My next self-assignment is to post a sound file of the #14 study.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Aria A558, 655 mm, Cedar, 1987, Nagoya, Japan
Hermanos Camps Master, 650 mm, Cedar, 2014 (Nº 3), Spain

User avatar
Yisrael van Handel
Posts: 491
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2012 5:26 pm
Location: Modi'in Illit, Israel

Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Yisrael van Handel » Sun Jun 25, 2017 6:33 pm

Jorge Oliveira wrote:
Fri Jun 16, 2017 12:28 pm
By the way, please check the 4th note in measures 2 and 6. In my Chanterelle edition of Sor's Studies it is a B (in the 2nd string) and I think you are playing a C, instead. Also, I'm not sure you are treating the 5th note of measure 2, a D, as a quarter note, the transition to the following one, an F, seems to me to be a bit faster than it should be.
I normally do not rerecord the same piece because of a few wrong notes. But in this case, two principles were involved. First Jorge correctly reminded me to place the entire chord at once, wherever possible. This greatly reduces the amount of work the brain has to do. I have never gotten into this habit. But since it is needed here to avoid the mistakes that I made, and since it should be general practice, I rerecorded, this time placing whole chords in advance. Secondly, I started practicing at less than 1/4 of playing speed. This is very helpful in detecting subtle inefficiencies of movement in both right and left hand. This recording is still not completely smooth. But I hope to keep improving.
Sor Op60 #10.wma
Many thanks to Jorge for his faithful commenting. I am starting to work on Study #11.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Yisrael van Handel
Modi'in Ilit, Israel

User avatar
Jorge Oliveira
Posts: 353
Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2016 4:17 pm
Location: Cascais, Portugal

Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Sun Jun 25, 2017 7:04 pm

I'm glad my comments helped you to improve your rendition of the #10, Yisrael. I have no further remarks except saying that it gives me a great pleasure to listen to it :D - steady rhythm and a good tone as usual. To the #11, then, and to the challenge of the harmonic in measure 16... :).
Aria A558, 655 mm, Cedar, 1987, Nagoya, Japan
Hermanos Camps Master, 650 mm, Cedar, 2014 (Nº 3), Spain

User avatar
Yisrael van Handel
Posts: 491
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2012 5:26 pm
Location: Modi'in Illit, Israel

Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Yisrael van Handel » Sun Jun 25, 2017 7:08 pm

Jorge Oliveira wrote:
Wed Jun 21, 2017 10:52 am

<snip> … with Konobloch Actives Carbon CX, High Tension strings (5 months and 9 days old already, but still going ok, I think).

In my rendition of this little piece I'm following Tom Poore's "edition" of the standard score, where he puts a repeat sign at the end of measure 8 - see, please, here, his musical analysis of this piece.
I agree with Tom Poore's repeat. The piece sounds natural that way. By the way, I could not find the link to his justification.
You brought out the melody nicely, especially in the second part. There is some tension in the left hand. I suggest just playing the piece below 1/4 performance speed and making sure that the melody is completely smooth. If you use Sor's left-hand fingering exactly, I think it will make it easier. For instance, the C (last note of measure 6) is played with the 3 finger. The A-F (first note of measure 7) is played with fingers 2-4. This allows a completely smooth transition between the two chords.
In measure 16, there are three Gs in a row. The first two Gs are the final resolution of the preceding G chord (G-B). I do not know what to make of the third G. It is not an upbeat because neither the first section nor the second section has an upbeat. But then why is the stem pointing up instead of down? I do not know. Musically the third G is the resolution of that G chord at the beginning of the measure. And perhaps you should subtly slow down there just a bit, to show that it is an ending of a phrase. Are you playing all the notes with stems down with the thumb? You will notice that Sor never writes right-hand fingering. But I believe that the downward stem was his way of telling you to use the thumb.
I am playing with the idea of skipping to exercise 13 so that we can be synchronized.

Oh, I forgot to ask you why high-tension strings? I use low-tension strings, and I find that they give more room for expression (not my strong point).
Yisrael van Handel
Modi'in Ilit, Israel

User avatar
Jorge Oliveira
Posts: 353
Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2016 4:17 pm
Location: Cascais, Portugal

Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Tue Jun 27, 2017 12:39 pm

Yisrael van Handel wrote:
Sun Jun 25, 2017 7:08 pm

I agree with Tom Poore's repeat. The piece sounds natural that way. By the way, I could not find the link to his justification.
Yisrael, please look at his post of the #13 on 14-Dec-16 in this thread.
Yisrael van Handel wrote:
Sun Jun 25, 2017 7:08 pm
You brought out the melody nicely, especially in the second part. There is some tension in the left hand. I suggest just playing the piece below 1/4 performance speed and making sure that the melody is completely smooth. If you use Sor's left-hand fingering exactly, I think it will make it easier. For instance, the C (last note of measure 6) is played with the 3 finger. The A-F (first note of measure 7) is played with fingers 2-4. This allows a completely smooth transition between the two chords.
In measure 16, there are three Gs in a row. The first two Gs are the final resolution of the preceding G chord (G-B). I do not know what to make of the third G. It is not an upbeat because neither the first section nor the second section has an upbeat. But then why is the stem pointing up instead of down? I do not know. Musically the third G is the resolution of that G chord at the beginning of the measure. And perhaps you should subtly slow down there just a bit, to show that it is an ending of a phrase. Are you playing all the notes with stems down with the thumb? You will notice that Sor never writes right-hand fingering. But I believe that the downward stem was his way of telling you to use the thumb.
Yes, I think you are right, I'm not that happy with my current rendition of the #13, I think I can improve it. There are, I think, changes in the rhythm between the first and the second parts. As of my fingering, I not always follow, rigorously, the one proposed by the editor of the Chanterelle edition, and not all of it is Sor's. Most of the times I use the i, m and a in the first three strings, reserving the thumb for the bass strings. And the reason is that, as I do not use the nail in my thumb, only the fleshy tip of it, the sound produced by my thumb in the treble strings is rather different from the one produced by the other three fingers. Moreover, as the thumb is also stronger, I tend to produce rather dislocated higher volumes.
Concerning the last C of measure 6 and its transition to the following A-F in measure 7, in fact, I'm using the fingers 2-3 for the A-F. In doing so, the transition from the position of C Major (last F-C in measure 6) to F Major (I do not use the full position with a bar, only the A-F notes which I pluck with the m and i, respectively) becomes easier and natural. As for the last three Gs in measure17, which I play with the i and m, I'm sorry, I cannot follow your reasoning, my musical theory background is rather limited :cry:. But I agree that I might have slowed down a bit as it is the end of a phrase. However, my idea here was different. Instead of considering the three Gs as an end of a phrase, I considered them as the start of the next phrase, a quite lively one, you will notice, so I'm playing these three Gs at the same speed as those of measure 17 onwards (they are eights).
Yisrael van Handel wrote:
Sun Jun 25, 2017 7:08 pm
I am playing with the idea of skipping to exercise 13 so that we can be synchronized.
Well, I think you should resist it. For various reasons. First, don't you worry, I'm a slow learner, you will easily catch and overtake me :D. Secondly, the counterpoint in measures 19-21 is a real challenge to your left hand and I believe Fernando Sor would like you to play it as part of your learning :lol:. Indeed, this is the first counterpoint I've seen in Opus 60 so far. Finally, the #12 is really a lively and beautiful little piece, it gives me extreme pleasure to play it and I'm sure the same will happen with you. Unfortunately, in my rendition I forgot to play the last D in measure 12, so I intend to post a new version, but, this time, played a little bit faster (see, please, the rendition of Prof. Edson Lopes on You Tube).
Yisrael van Handel wrote:
Sun Jun 25, 2017 7:08 pm
Oh, I forgot to ask you why high-tension strings? I use low-tension strings, and I find that they give more room for expression (not my strong point).
I think, Yisrael, I've played most of my life with medium tension strings. But, some three years ago I experimented the D'Addario EJ46FF high tension in my Aria A558 and the sound that came out of it was so different from what I was used to - more powerful, more volume, richer tones - that I was instantly converted to this type of strings. And as I have quite strong fingers and nails, I didn't have any difficulty with the somewhat higher strength one must apply with the left had on the fretboard. And I can do vibrato with these strings as well. Possible buzzing is also minimized. Therefore, from then onwards, I've always used high tension strings in both of my guitars. The Camps is now fitted with Konobloch Actives strings, but once these reach the end of their lives, I'll try the Hannabach 815HT Silver Special Blue, High Tension. By the way, I wrote a small Excel routine that calculates automatically how many days, months and years have elapsed since you changed the strings in your guitar. If you (or, for that matter, anyone in this forum) are interested, I can send it to you. It's usage is trivial.
Aria A558, 655 mm, Cedar, 1987, Nagoya, Japan
Hermanos Camps Master, 650 mm, Cedar, 2014 (Nº 3), Spain

User avatar
Jorge Oliveira
Posts: 353
Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2016 4:17 pm
Location: Cascais, Portugal

Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Sat Jul 01, 2017 5:27 pm

Dear Friends:

June is gone and it's time, once more, to publish some statistical data concerning our participation in this thread for this month.
Delcamp Forum, Sor's Opus 60 thread - Jun_2017.png

Those with zero posts, posted sometime in the past but not in June. Nevertheless, their names will be kept in the graph so we all know whom ever participated in this Topic.

The graphic that follows present the daily ramp up of posts and views for the last month.
Delcamp Forum, Sor's Opus 60 thread, posts and views - Jun_2017.png

As you can see, the number of views jumped unexpectedly in the middle of the month. Short of some malfunctioning in the counting views algorithm, I have no explanation for this kind of behaviour.

Finally, the next graph depicts the total number of monthly posts and views since this Topic was initiated in December 2016.
Delcamp Forum, Sor's Opus 60 thread - Montlhy Posts &amp; Views_Dec16-Jun17.png

The participation in this Topic is decreasing. Nevertheless, I thank you all, again, for your support to this Project.

Jorge
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Aria A558, 655 mm, Cedar, 1987, Nagoya, Japan
Hermanos Camps Master, 650 mm, Cedar, 2014 (Nº 3), Spain

User avatar
Jorge Oliveira
Posts: 353
Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2016 4:17 pm
Location: Cascais, Portugal

Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Fri Jul 07, 2017 11:16 am

Jorge Oliveira wrote:
Sun Feb 12, 2017 10:07 pm
MattPM wrote:Jorge, that's a mean guitar you play (Hermanos Campos master). Well done on uploading #5, I enjoyed the legato lines you pulled off.
Thank you, Matt, for your nice words. Yes, the guitar I'm using for these records is a very good one, indeed. I bought it at Guitarras de Luthier in Madrid in September 2014, and I'm quite happy with it. As for the #5, a good friend of mine from Delft, in Holland, called my attention to mistakes I did in measures 21 and 37, where I'm playing an A instead of C sharp (second note), and another one in measure 39 where I'm playing a C sharp where it is an E :oops: :cry:. I did not noticed them as these notes do not sound bad and I remembered a similar observation you did to my my rendition of Opus 60 #4. I'll produce and post a new record of this #5 within the next few days, which will be version V2.
.
.
.
Well, it took me more than "a few days" to prepare Sor's Opus 60 #5 with no wrong notes. So, I'm now posting now a revised version of Sor's Opus 60 #5 for you all to listen to and comment. As usual, the record was produced with the Zoom Handy Recorder app on my iPhone, the sound capture being made by an iRig microphone that connects directly to the iPhone. This time, the guitar used was my Aria A558 with D'Addario EJ46FF Pro-Arte Carbon, Dynacore Basses, High Tension strings (5 months and 23 days old already, but still going ok, I think). The resulting .wav file was then processed with the Audacity audio editor on Windows 10 to produce the .wma file below. My impressions of this piece are, as usual, in green:

Sor’s Opus 60, Nº 5. Comment: And I've upped the beat a little bit, from 1/8 = 215 bpm to 235 bpm. It is nicer this way, I think.
Sor, Fernando - Opus 60 #5 (V2).wma
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Aria A558, 655 mm, Cedar, 1987, Nagoya, Japan
Hermanos Camps Master, 650 mm, Cedar, 2014 (Nº 3), Spain

User avatar
Yisrael van Handel
Posts: 491
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2012 5:26 pm
Location: Modi'in Illit, Israel

Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Yisrael van Handel » Fri Jul 07, 2017 11:36 am

Here is Opus 60 #11. I notice that in each exercise, Sor introduces a new technical issue. That is one of the nice things about these exercies, they give you a lot of techniques one at a time. The two challenging aspects of this exercise were:
  1. Controlling the articulation
  2. Maintaining concentration when playing the same figure over and over in the second part.
I listened to recordings on YouTube, and they sounded messy to me because open strings were left playing far past their time, which made a muddled impression. I have tried to damp open strings when necessarily. Especially the open 4th string needs careful attention. Sor wrote exactly how long to hold each note. In the second section, I had to concentrate very hard with all those repetitive figures. Very easy to skip one or play one too many.
Sor_Op60_#11.wma
Please comment. I know I stumbled in one place, but I liked the tone of the recording and the general effect, so I am posting anyway. If I make another recording, I will stumble somewhere else.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Yisrael van Handel
Modi'in Ilit, Israel

User avatar
Yisrael van Handel
Posts: 491
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2012 5:26 pm
Location: Modi'in Illit, Israel

Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Yisrael van Handel » Fri Jul 07, 2017 11:48 am

Jorge Oliveira wrote:
Fri Jul 07, 2017 11:16 am

Well, it took me more than "a few days" to prepare Sor's Opus 60 #5 with no wrong notes. So, I'm now posting now a revised version of Sor's Opus 60 #5 for you all to listen to and comment. <snip>
Sorry I did not respond immediately. Apparently we were both recording at the same time. Very nice. Good tone, nice phrasing, the whole piece made good musical sense. Measures 23 and 24 were a little rushed the first time through. This is not serious, but I just want to prove to you that I listened very carefully to every note several times. I am very much enjoying your progress. Keep up the good work. Your control is improving, even at this quite brisk pace.
Yisrael van Handel
Modi'in Ilit, Israel

Return to “Public Space”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Aaron Green, Brandwatch [Bot], CommonCrawl [Bot], Yahoo [Bot] and 36 guests