Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Discussions relating to the classical guitar which don't fit elsewhere.
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Jorge Oliveira
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Tue Oct 10, 2017 10:37 pm

I'm leaving tomorrow for a week tour over the North of Portugal with a Dutch couple. I'll be able to read the posts in this thread (in my iPhone) but I won't have the piece of mind nor the time to participate in the discussion. I'll do it once I come back next week :).

Regards to all,

Jorge
1972 - Kuniharu Nobe #8, 658/51, Spr, RW B&S, Tokio, JP
1979 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.40, 650/51, Ced, RW B&S, JP
1987 - Aria A558, 650/51, Ced, lam RW B&S, Nagoya, JP
2014 - Hermanos Camps Master Nº 3, 650/52, CA Ced, MG RW B&S, Banyoles, ES

Henny
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Henny » Wed Oct 11, 2017 7:39 am

hello all,
i already joined online lessons so you can imagine i am in favor that others join the delcamp or other lessons but that is everyone''s decision. as i have my regular lessons, the Sor study is complementary of what i am doing already.
''lets say my appetite is bigger then my stomach''
i see a lot of technical problems coming our way as we go along if we do not take care of slurs - finger independance -dynamics - phrasing etc.
i agree with Yisraels opinion in this matter we could focus more on the details and dig deeper into the pieces and can come back to it later if necessary it can be joined by everyone interested in a particular piece of Sor to study.
the backside is that we will probably loose cohesion of the group as some will maybe join only for nr 23 f.e. but is that important?
I am open to any new approach but will not alter my present learning/playing.

Peskyendeavour
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Peskyendeavour » Tue Oct 17, 2017 9:48 pm

I guess we will all learn at different speeds with other things accompanying the journey. Some will find it easy others find the same piece hard so I guess this thread would be inclusive of anyone doing any part of Sor Op 60, whether it's for 1 particular piece or for many.

I'm going slowly as I'm learning other things in parallel, as I have short attention span. I find it more interesting to have a few books going at the same time, on technique on different styles on pieces...

I actually logged on to say I've just moved on to no 10 of Op 60. I'm simply amazed at how Sor have put together simple arpeggio and chord progression up and down the scale and made it so beautiful. The more Sor I play the more I'm in love with and in awe of him... simple single notes and yet so beautifully expressive.

I'm also interested in how Sor must have written these in training his students hand positions that progressively gets harder, and of course melody, phrasing, stopping notes etc etc. But a clear progression is intended and seen in his compositions. It's like practising arpeggios scales and chords without noticing it because they are all embedded in beautiful music. Through practising the pieces you are practising all the basic skills at the same time... how wonderful...

Sor is amazing...!!!

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hgamboa
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by hgamboa » Wed Oct 18, 2017 5:10 pm

Sor Opus 60, no 1

Here is my attempt on nr. 1.

I took a couple of days to perfect the playing, and then more days to find the time to learn and setup everything to record.
And then even a couple of days more to decide to post it!
Opus60nr1.wma
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Hugo Gamboa
Lisboa, Portugal

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Yisrael van Handel
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Yisrael van Handel » Thu Oct 19, 2017 6:41 am

Henny wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2017 7:39 am

i already joined online lessons so you can imagine i am in favor that others join the delcamp<snip>
i see a lot of technical problems coming our way as we go along if we do not take care of slurs - finger independance -dynamics - phrasing etc.
Henny,
I share your concern about slurs, finger independence, dynamics, and phrasing. I have half of a solution for dynamics and phrasing (Mario Amaya's excellent Metodología de Estudio para la Ejecucíon e Interpretacíon de la Guitarra Clásica), but what can we do about slurs and finger independence? I have several of the best modern methodologies (Stanley Yates, Hubert Käppel, Scott Tennant) and the original Aaron Shearer; but that is years of very boring work. I might start on it, if I had some guidance on where to focus.
Yisrael van Handel
Modi'in Ilit, Israel

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Yisrael van Handel
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Yisrael van Handel » Thu Oct 19, 2017 6:49 am

hgamboa wrote:
Wed Oct 18, 2017 5:10 pm
Sor Opus 60, no 1
Excellent start. Smooth, accurate playing of notes, intelligent dynamics. I think the ends of phrases (end of bars 4, 8, and 16) would be more effective if played diminuendo (decreasing volume). You seem to have missed the repeat of the second phrase. Keep up to the good work.
Yisrael van Handel
Modi'in Ilit, Israel

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Andrew Fryer
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Andrew Fryer » Thu Oct 19, 2017 10:43 am

Yisrael van Handel wrote:
Thu Oct 19, 2017 6:49 am
hgamboa wrote:
Wed Oct 18, 2017 5:10 pm
Sor Opus 60, no 1
Excellent start. Smooth, accurate playing of notes, intelligent dynamics. I think the ends of phrases (end of bars 4, 8, and 16) would be more effective if played diminuendo (decreasing volume). You seem to have missed the repeat of the second phrase. Keep up to the good work.
Yes, I liked the phrasing very much. The only thing I felt was that some of the bass notes were a bit clunky and disinterested - they should be musical too. It was a bit military at times. Nothing wrong with that, if that's the intention.
1975 Calatayud y Gisbert, Yamaha CG131S.

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Yisrael van Handel
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Yisrael van Handel » Thu Oct 19, 2017 4:16 pm

Andrew Fryer wrote:
Thu Oct 19, 2017 10:43 am
<snip> some of the bass notes were a bit clunky and disinterested - they should be musical too. It was a bit military at times. Nothing wrong with that, if that's the intention.
Hi, Andrew,
I was trying to figure out what you meant, because I think we should try to make suggestions on how fix problems. I think what you mean is that the bass note at the end of each phrase is clipped very short. This gives a kind of military feel. Giving that last bass note its full value will overcome that. Playing it softly, so that it starts to die out even before reaching its full value will give a more natural ending to the phrase. I hope this helps (and I hope that Andrew doesn't mind my commenting on the point that he made).
Yisrael van Handel
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Andrew Fryer
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Andrew Fryer » Thu Oct 19, 2017 4:32 pm

No, I thought that it had a bit of a march feel to it. That may be OK, or you may like to try a tiny amount of rubato if you want to soften that a bit. The bass notes, apart from being clipped in places, were also a bit cardboardy and without feeling or resonance. Perhaps some more apoyando technique with the thumb, or just nail/flesh thumb technique, would help that?
1975 Calatayud y Gisbert, Yamaha CG131S.

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hgamboa
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by hgamboa » Thu Oct 19, 2017 8:37 pm

Thank you Yisrael and Andrew for your comments. It gives me good directions on how to improve!

I'm very new to this forum :) , so I need some guidance in the community process.
Is there a process to do a resubmission of an improvement after receiving comments?
Hugo Gamboa
Lisboa, Portugal

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Jorge Oliveira
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Thu Oct 19, 2017 11:29 pm

hgamboa wrote:
Thu Oct 19, 2017 8:37 pm
Thank you Yisrael and Andrew for your comments. It gives me good directions on how to improve!

I'm very new to this forum :) , so I need some guidance in the community process.
Is there a process to do a resubmission of an improvement after receiving comments?
Hi Hugo:

I liked your rendition of Sor's Opus 60 #1. The tone is nice and the recording too. In what concerns the comments already made by Yisrael and Andrew, the only thing I may add is that if you keep on playing it every day, there will come a time when you will be so much more familiar with it that you will be able to play it in a more light, faster way, which, in my opinion, brings out all the beauty of this little piece.

As for a resubmission of the recording of this (or any) particular piece, well, just make a new record and post it, as you did on your post of October 18th, calling it, perhaps, Opus60nr1 (V2).wma and adding some comment.

With your post, the table of posted pieces is now the following:
Sor's Opus 60 recorded pieces as of 18Oct17.png
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1972 - Kuniharu Nobe #8, 658/51, Spr, RW B&S, Tokio, JP
1979 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.40, 650/51, Ced, RW B&S, JP
1987 - Aria A558, 650/51, Ced, lam RW B&S, Nagoya, JP
2014 - Hermanos Camps Master Nº 3, 650/52, CA Ced, MG RW B&S, Banyoles, ES

Peskyendeavour
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Peskyendeavour » Sat Oct 21, 2017 7:56 am

Andrew Fryer wrote:
Thu Oct 19, 2017 4:32 pm
No, I thought that it had a bit of a march feel to it. That may be OK, or you may like to try a tiny amount of rubato if you want to soften that a bit. The bass notes, apart from being clipped in places, were also a bit cardboardy and without feeling or resonance. Perhaps some more apoyando technique with the thumb, or just nail/flesh thumb technique, would help that?
I agree, also adding that perhaps you should make the melody sing a bit more by not letting the notes ring through and stopping it at the next. Just read the score carefully again and only play the notes to its full value and stop the notes. That should also improve your phrasing.

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Yisrael van Handel
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Yisrael van Handel » Sat Oct 21, 2017 6:56 pm

Peskyendeavour wrote:
Sat Oct 21, 2017 7:56 am
I agree, also adding that perhaps you should make the melody sing a bit more by not letting the notes ring through and stopping it at the next.<snip>
Sor writes at the beginning of this piece:
…and taking care not to lift any finger until is to be employed elsewhere or until a lower note is to be played on the pressed string or it is to be played open, one will imperceptibly acquire the habit of placing the left hand properly.
Yisrael van Handel
Modi'in Ilit, Israel

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hgamboa
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by hgamboa » Sun Oct 22, 2017 1:37 pm

Following your several directions, I played in the tempo recommended by D01 and used more dumping (I nevertheless like the g in the second part continuing). I also tried to do the diminuendo recommended by Yisrael.

Thanks again for your feedback, hoping that you find this as an improved version!
Opus60nr1_v2_.wma
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Hugo Gamboa
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Jorge Oliveira
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Sun Oct 22, 2017 5:12 pm

hgamboa wrote:
Sun Oct 22, 2017 1:37 pm
Following your several directions, I played in the tempo recommended by D01 and used more dumping (I nevertheless like the g in the second part continuing). I also tried to do the diminuendo recommended by Yisrael.

Thanks again for your feedback, hoping that you find this as an improved version!

Opus60nr1_v2_.wma
Much, much better, Hugo. In my opinion, the tempo is OK, now. Congratulations. Time to move to the #2... :)
1972 - Kuniharu Nobe #8, 658/51, Spr, RW B&S, Tokio, JP
1979 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.40, 650/51, Ced, RW B&S, JP
1987 - Aria A558, 650/51, Ced, lam RW B&S, Nagoya, JP
2014 - Hermanos Camps Master Nº 3, 650/52, CA Ced, MG RW B&S, Banyoles, ES

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