Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Discussions relating to the classical guitar which don't fit elsewhere.
User avatar
Yisrael van Handel
Posts: 540
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2012 5:26 pm
Location: Modi'in Illit, Israel

Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Yisrael van Handel » Mon Oct 23, 2017 9:13 am

hgamboa wrote:
Sun Oct 22, 2017 1:37 pm
Following your several directions, I played in the tempo recommended by D01 and used more dumping (I nevertheless like the g in the second part continuing). I also tried to do the diminuendo recommended by Yisrael.

Thanks again for your feedback, hoping that you find this as an improved version!

Opus60nr1_v2_.wma
Beautiful. Excellent tone, very clean, smooth, good phrasing, very good dynamics. Your playing is alive and has soul. I agree with Jorge. You are ready to move on.
Yisrael van Handel
Modi'in Ilit, Israel

User avatar
Jorge Oliveira
Posts: 448
Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2016 4:17 pm
Location: Cascais, Portugal

Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Wed Oct 25, 2017 11:43 am

Right, I'm back from my tourism trip to the north of Portugal, things are now settled, restarted also my guitar studies and I can now give my contribution to the ongoing discussion on how to organize our next Project, the study of Sor's Opus 31.
Yisrael van Handel wrote:
Tue Oct 10, 2017 8:51 am
Jorge Oliveira wrote:
Mon Oct 09, 2017 10:42 pm
Yisrael van Handel wrote:
Mon Oct 09, 2017 4:29 pm

...I also intend to work on Op 31 exercises as soon as I finish with Op 60.---
Right, Yisrael, count me in. We could even start a new Let's learn Sor's Opus 31 together, shall we? Project, no?
But, Jorge, let's have a meeting of the main players here, study the lessons learned (I mean, from running the group, not from playing the pieces), look at the high and low points, and see if we need to make any adjustments. My current thinking is that we should have opened a new topic for each piece. It would make searching easier, the backlog of comments less unwieldy, and it would bring the group to the attention of a broader audience. Another point that might be worth discussing is whether this is the right approach or whether we should join the Delcamp lessons. I would be interested in hearing other people's views.
What you propose, Yisrael, to have a separate Topic per piece, has the advantage of simplifying search and concentrating in a single thread all the renditions and comments concerning any specific piece of the Opus 31.
powderedtoastman wrote:
Tue Oct 10, 2017 5:17 pm
I would be in on Op. 31 as well!
I am doing a bit of divide and conquer with the four big study collections 60, 44, 31 and 35.

There may be advantages and disadvantages to having one big thread for the opus vs. having a thread for each piece. The thread for each piece means if the threads are going in order then those of us who like to skip around a bit might be waiting for a new thread on a later piece.. that's the only drawback I can think of though.
I wonder if they could make a "let's study together" sub-forum in "Classical Guitar Classes" so we could have a place to put this without flooding a more general sub-forum.
But your comments, powdertoastman, are also pertinent, the advantage of keeping all pieces in a single thread is that it sort of establishes a quasi "competition" between us all, encouraging us to learn all the pieces of the Opus by a certain order.

Also, as you point out, Henny,...
Henny wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2017 7:39 am
...
i agree with Yisraels opinion in this matter we could focus more on the details and dig deeper into the pieces and can come back to it later if necessary it can be joined by everyone interested in a particular piece of Sor to study.
the backside is that we will probably loose cohesion of the group as some will maybe join only for nr 23 f.e. but is that important?
I am open to any new approach but will not alter my present learning/playing.
... it keeps the group united in the single purpose - going through all the pieces of a single Opus.

I also believe that publishing the table of posted pieces contributes to the cohesion of the group and facilitates the search for any particular rendition. As for the other monthly statistics I publish, well, it gives an insight on the interest the Topic receives from all the members of the Delcamp Forum.

All the suggestions above might be answered if one could create a Topic - Let's learn Sor's Opus 31 together, shall we?, for example - and, within it, Sub-Topics dedicated to each piece that one could select via a pull-down mechanism or similar. Such tools already exist in the phpBB® Forum Software that powers this Forum but, unfortunately, they are not accessible to Members, the only thing a Member can do, I believe, is to create new Topics within already existing, fixed, categories. So, I don't know, may be some one else has other ideas that might answer to the advantages, disadvantages and concerns expressed above.

GeoffB, do you know if it is possible for a Forum Member to create Sub-Topics within a Topic? Your answer would be much appreciated.
1972 - Kuniharu Nobe #8, 658/51, Spr, RW B&S, Tokio, JPN (under repair)
1979 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.40
1987 - Aria A558, 650/51, Ced, lam RW B&S, Nagoya, JPN
2014 - Hermanos Camps Master Nº 3, 650/52, CAN Ced, MDG RW B&S, Banyoles, ESP

User avatar
GeoffB
Chief moderator
Chief moderator
Posts: 32550
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2007 3:37 pm
Location: UK

Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by GeoffB » Wed Oct 25, 2017 5:43 pm

Jorge Oliveira wrote:
Wed Oct 25, 2017 11:43 am
GeoffB, do you know if it is possible for a Forum Member to create Sub-Topics within a Topic? Your answer would be much appreciated.
No, I'm afraid that is not possible, even for moderators. All I could suggest would be to create separate topics for the individual pieces and post an index of links to them in the main topic.
Classical Guitar Forum.

"Experience is something you don't get until just after you need it." - Steven Wright

User avatar
Jorge Oliveira
Posts: 448
Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2016 4:17 pm
Location: Cascais, Portugal

Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Wed Oct 25, 2017 6:49 pm

GeoffB wrote: [/color]ser_id=20803]
Jorge Oliveira wrote:
Wed Oct 25, 2017 11:43 am
GeoffB, do you know if it is possible for a Forum Member to create Sub-Topics within a Topic? Your answer would be much appreciated.
No, I'm afraid that is not possible, even for moderators. All I could suggest would be to create separate topics for the individual pieces and post an index of links to them in the main topic.
Thanks for the suggestion, GeoffB, I'll study your idea and see if it fits our needs.

Best regards,

Jorge
1972 - Kuniharu Nobe #8, 658/51, Spr, RW B&S, Tokio, JPN (under repair)
1979 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.40
1987 - Aria A558, 650/51, Ced, lam RW B&S, Nagoya, JPN
2014 - Hermanos Camps Master Nº 3, 650/52, CAN Ced, MDG RW B&S, Banyoles, ESP

User avatar
Jorge Oliveira
Posts: 448
Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2016 4:17 pm
Location: Cascais, Portugal

Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Wed Oct 25, 2017 9:28 pm

GeoffB wrote:
Wed Oct 25, 2017 5:43 pm
Jorge Oliveira wrote:
Wed Oct 25, 2017 11:43 am
GeoffB, do you know if it is possible for a Forum Member to create Sub-Topics within a Topic? Your answer would be much appreciated.
No, I'm afraid that is not possible, even for moderators. All I could suggest would be to create separate topics for the individual pieces and post an index of links to them in the main topic.
Sorry to bother you again, Geoff, but how do I post/create, within a (main) topic, an index of links to other (sub)topics? I've checked the BBCodes goto= and anchor= in the Full Quick Reply Editor we use in this Forum and they do not seem capable of doing that... :(

Edited: Oops!... Sorry Geoff, please ignore my question above. Naturally, one should use the (url)text(/url) BBcode (with right brackets, of course) :).
1972 - Kuniharu Nobe #8, 658/51, Spr, RW B&S, Tokio, JPN (under repair)
1979 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.40
1987 - Aria A558, 650/51, Ced, lam RW B&S, Nagoya, JPN
2014 - Hermanos Camps Master Nº 3, 650/52, CAN Ced, MDG RW B&S, Banyoles, ESP

User avatar
Yisrael van Handel
Posts: 540
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2012 5:26 pm
Location: Modi'in Illit, Israel

Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Yisrael van Handel » Thu Oct 26, 2017 6:33 am

Jorge,
Thanks for your hard work and good research. This looks to me like a promising solution. I think we also need to discuss whether Sor's Opus 31 is the right solution, or whether we should be joining the DelCamp lessons. One of my concerns it that we have not talked much about performance practice. I am learning a lot now about performance practice of Sor's period from Wim Winters' YouTube Channel, AuthenticSounds. He explores the performance practice from Bach to Beethoven and Papazafeiropoulos. His channel is specific to the clavichord, but it still gives a good sense of the possibilities and constraints of historically informed practice. I get the feeling, though, that an understanding of Renaissance and Baroque performance practice would help understand the Classical period. The DelCamp lessons are very strong in Renaissance and Early Baroque literature.
Yisrael van Handel
Modi'in Ilit, Israel

User avatar
Yisrael van Handel
Posts: 540
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2012 5:26 pm
Location: Modi'in Illit, Israel

Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Yisrael van Handel » Thu Oct 26, 2017 7:08 pm

Fernando Sor, Opus 60, #14.
Please comment. That is what this thread is all about. We are trying to help each other. I have started studying performance practice. I am still at the beginning, but it has already given me some ideas that I tried to apply here. The pieces are getting harder and require more careful attention to left-hand fingering and working out the movements very slowly to develop the required accuracy.
Sor_Op60_#14.wma
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Yisrael van Handel
Modi'in Ilit, Israel

User avatar
Stephen Kenyon
Teacher
Posts: 2120
Joined: Sun Aug 04, 2013 11:26 am
Location: Dorchester, Dorset, England

Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Stephen Kenyon » Fri Oct 27, 2017 8:00 am

Yisrael van Handel wrote:
Thu Oct 26, 2017 7:08 pm
Fernando Sor, Opus 60, #14.
Please comment. That is what this thread is all about. We are trying to help each other. I have started studying performance practice.
Sor_Op60_#14.wma
Is it possible to post as mp3 also, I can't open wma...
Forgive me for not reading the entire thread; re your discussion of op 31 etc as against joining one of this forums formal classes, one assumes you have all wanted in this to follow a more open ended timetable? So as self directed, self moderated goals in a wider repertoire have you looked at following the ready-made progression in one of the existing exam syllabuses e.g. ABRSM etc, the first two lists of which are respectively renaissance/baroque and 19th century and so are out of copyright and may be freely posted here. Many at least would have freely available scores, though published specially made transriptions are themselves n copyright. For contemporary pieces one would think composers who have posted here would be happy to nominate pieces for particular levels, imprecise though it gets.
Bearing in mind Sor's Opp 31, 35, 44 & 60 are pieces I often sit down and play for fun, it serms to me i. their progression is very patchy, as you may have noticed the first few pieces of op 60, ii. no matter how fine the composer, staying so much wthin their universe will inevitably miss some things out in both technical and musical terms.
Simon Ambridge Series 40 (2005)
Trevor Semple Series 88 (1992)
Louis Panormo (1838)
Alexander Batov Baroque Guitar (2013)

User avatar
Jorge Oliveira
Posts: 448
Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2016 4:17 pm
Location: Cascais, Portugal

Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Fri Oct 27, 2017 10:27 am

Yisrael van Handel wrote:
Thu Oct 26, 2017 7:08 pm
Fernando Sor, Opus 60, #14.
Please comment. That is what this thread is all about. We are trying to help each other. I have started studying performance practice. I am still at the beginning, but it has already given me some ideas that I tried to apply here. The pieces are getting harder and require more careful attention to left-hand fingering and working out the movements very slowly to develop the required accuracy.

Sor_Op60_#14.wma
Well done, Yisrael, as you say, pieces are getting harder and harder to learn. This one in particular I did not find it too difficult to play (the #12 is much harder, for instance) and it is one that I really enjoy playing. Did you notice that this is the second time one encounters acciaccaturas - in measures 2, 6 and 19 - in the Opus 60, the first one being in the #7, measure 12? You played them all nicely. Your tempo is also OK, though I prefer to play it a bit slower. I also felt, but this may only be an impression, that you sped up a little bit in the repetition of measures 18-20. However, my main questions lie within measure 24. First, may be you are staying too long on the open E in the 2nd beat (you see, it is a sixteenth note) and, secondly, in the last accord of the measure, it looks like you are playing a D# in the second string instead of an F# in the 1st string. Please check :).

Also, in your post you refer to performance practice. Would you explain what you mean by that?

With this post of yours, Yisrael, the table of records posted so far is the following:
Sor's Opus 60 recorded pieces as of 26Oct17.png
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
1972 - Kuniharu Nobe #8, 658/51, Spr, RW B&S, Tokio, JPN (under repair)
1979 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.40
1987 - Aria A558, 650/51, Ced, lam RW B&S, Nagoya, JPN
2014 - Hermanos Camps Master Nº 3, 650/52, CAN Ced, MDG RW B&S, Banyoles, ESP

User avatar
hgamboa
Posts: 10
Joined: Fri Oct 06, 2017 2:59 pm
Location: Portugal

Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by hgamboa » Fri Oct 27, 2017 11:40 pm

Very good Yisrael.

I'll give my feedback, but do consider that I'm a starter on this opus, and not even worked this piece.

I think that you already a very good control of this piece, but in some occasions you seem to hesitate after a pause of the ending of a phrase. I think that this could be improved by revisiting this piece in the future.
Hugo Gamboa
Lisboa, Portugal

User avatar
Yisrael van Handel
Posts: 540
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2012 5:26 pm
Location: Modi'in Illit, Israel

Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Yisrael van Handel » Sun Oct 29, 2017 2:53 pm

hgamboa wrote:
Fri Oct 27, 2017 11:40 pm
in some occasions you seem to hesitate after a pause of the ending of a phrase. I think that this could be improved by revisiting this piece in the future.
Correct. I am aware of the problem. I was a little hasty in posting. Thank you very much for listening and commenting.
Yisrael van Handel
Modi'in Ilit, Israel

User avatar
Yisrael van Handel
Posts: 540
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2012 5:26 pm
Location: Modi'in Illit, Israel

Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Yisrael van Handel » Sun Oct 29, 2017 3:17 pm

Jorge Oliveira wrote:
Fri Oct 27, 2017 10:27 am

I also felt, but this may only be an impression, that you sped up a little bit in the repetition of measures 18-20. However, my main questions lie within measure 24. First, may be you are staying too long on the open E in the 2nd beat (you see, it is a sixteenth note) and, secondly, in the last accord of the measure, it looks like you are playing a D# in the second string instead of an F# in the 1st string. Please check :).
Also, in your post you refer to performance practice. Would you explain what you mean by that?
Hi, Jorge,
  • Thanks for listening and thanks for your comments. Normally, I practice with a metronome. On this piece, I worked so hard on other things that I cut corners playing with the metronome. It shows. Hugo also mentioned it. And there was a mistaken note.
  • By performance practice I mean the techniques that are appropriate to the time and place of the composer for creating an expressive piece. In the Renaissance, for instance, much was left up to the player. In the time of Sor, there was still a lot of latitude for the performer to inject meaning and feeling into the piece. What the composer expected you to do or not do is what I call performance practice. It is what breathes life into a piece, but within the constraints of what was accepted in the time and place of the composer. Knowing what is available gives you a wide range of options for interpreting the piece.
I had the following conversation with Wim Winters, a Belgian musicologist who has a series with more than 500 YouTube videos on performance practice of the music between Bach and Beethoven. Sor also was in that period. As the conversation was in Dutch, I will translate the main points for you:
Wim, Request: can you explain which elements in the music of Clementi must be played literally as written and where there is more flexibility?
Which techniques can we use to make the music more alive? I am interested primarily in the principles, because I play guitar, not clavichord.
Wim answered:
Marius <my name in Dutch>, that is a good question. Tempi that go back to the style of Bach is one issue, accentuation is another important aspect. Expression, in depth, more important than speed. Timing, where possible, create tension by postponing. I am thinking about whether I can make a video to deal with this subject.
This is the relevant video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zZmVeseXE5Y
PS, Jorge, can you address Steven Kenyon's question about how to post MP3s, because he cannot play WMA files? That is more in your domain than in mine.
Yisrael van Handel
Modi'in Ilit, Israel

User avatar
Jorge Oliveira
Posts: 448
Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2016 4:17 pm
Location: Cascais, Portugal

Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Sun Oct 29, 2017 5:30 pm

Yisrael van Handel wrote:
Sun Oct 29, 2017 3:17 pm
Jorge Oliveira wrote:
Fri Oct 27, 2017 10:27 am

I also felt, but this may only be an impression, that you sped up a little bit in the repetition of measures 18-20. However, my main questions lie within measure 24. First, may be you are staying too long on the open E in the 2nd beat (you see, it is a sixteenth note) and, secondly, in the last accord of the measure, it looks like you are playing a D# in the second string instead of an F# in the 1st string. Please check :).
Also, in your post you refer to performance practice. Would you explain what you mean by that?
Hi, Jorge,
  • Thanks for listening and thanks for your comments. Normally, I practice with a metronome. On this piece, I worked so hard on other things that I cut corners playing with the metronome. It shows. Hugo also mentioned it. And there was a mistaken note.
  • By performance practice I mean the techniques that are appropriate to the time and place of the composer for creating an expressive piece. In the Renaissance, for instance, much was left up to the player. In the time of Sor, there was still a lot of latitude for the performer to inject meaning and feeling into the piece. What the composer expected you to do or not do is what I call performance practice. It is what breathes life into a piece, but within the constraints of what was accepted in the time and place of the composer. Knowing what is available gives you a wide range of options for interpreting the piece.
I had the following conversation with Wim Winters, a Belgian musicologist who has a series with more than 500 YouTube videos on performance practice of the music between Bach and Beethoven. Sor also was in that period. As the conversation was in Dutch, I will translate the main points for you:
Wim, Request: can you explain which elements in the music of Clementi must be played literally as written and where there is more flexibility?
Which techniques can we use to make the music more alive? I am interested primarily in the principles, because I play guitar, not clavichord.
Wim answered:
Marius <my name in Dutch>, that is a good question. Tempi that go back to the style of Bach is one issue, accentuation is another important aspect. Expression, in depth, more important than speed. Timing, where possible, create tension by postponing. I am thinking about whether I can make a video to deal with this subject.
This is the relevant video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zZmVeseXE5Y
PS, Jorge, can you address Steven Kenyon's question about how to post MP3s, because he cannot play WMA files? That is more in your domain than in mine.
Yes, Yisrael, I understand now what you mean by performance practice. I listened the YouTube clip from Wim Winters for about an hour. Fascinating, I wish I could ever sight read as he does. But Wim was talking about Clementi. Beyond the scarce comments of Sor in his scores, are there, then, any indications from Sor and other more recent composers (Tárrega, for instance) about how their pieces should be interpreted? I haven't seen any such material... :(.

Concerning you rendition of the #14 in .mp3 for Sephen Kenyon, yes, I think I can d do it using the Audacity editor, but as I'll not use the original .wav file generated during the recording session (the file is in your PC), I'll have to use the .wma file as the source file (if Audacity allows it). The resulting .mp3 file, therefore, may not have the same sound quality as the original. Let's see...
1972 - Kuniharu Nobe #8, 658/51, Spr, RW B&S, Tokio, JPN (under repair)
1979 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.40
1987 - Aria A558, 650/51, Ced, lam RW B&S, Nagoya, JPN
2014 - Hermanos Camps Master Nº 3, 650/52, CAN Ced, MDG RW B&S, Banyoles, ESP

User avatar
Jorge Oliveira
Posts: 448
Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2016 4:17 pm
Location: Cascais, Portugal

Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Sun Oct 29, 2017 6:25 pm

Stephen Kenyon wrote:
Fri Oct 27, 2017 8:00 am
Yisrael van Handel wrote:
Thu Oct 26, 2017 7:08 pm
Fernando Sor, Opus 60, #14.
Please comment. That is what this thread is all about. We are trying to help each other. I have started studying performance practice.
Sor_Op60_#14.wma
Is it possible to post as mp3 also, I can't open wma...
Forgive me for not reading the entire thread; re your discussion of op 31 etc as against joining one of this forums formal classes, one assumes you have all wanted in this to follow a more open ended timetable? So as self directed, self moderated goals in a wider repertoire have you looked at following the ready-made progression in one of the existing exam syllabuses e.g. ABRSM etc, the first two lists of which are respectively renaissance/baroque and 19th century and so are out of copyright and may be freely posted here. Many at least would have freely available scores, though published specially made transriptions are themselves n copyright. For contemporary pieces one would think composers who have posted here would be happy to nominate pieces for particular levels, imprecise though it gets.
Bearing in mind Sor's Opp 31, 35, 44 & 60 are pieces I often sit down and play for fun, it serms to me i. their progression is very patchy, as you may have noticed the first few pieces of op 60, ii. no matter how fine the composer, staying so much wthin their universe will inevitably miss some things out in both technical and musical terms.
Hi Stephen:

As requested by Yisrael, please find below the link from my Dropbox for his rendition of Sor's Opus 60 #14 in .mp3.
Sor_Op60_#14 (Yisrael).mp3

As a side note, I would like you to know that, before I started practising the #14, I looked into your YouTube tutorial on this nice little piece. It was quite helpful, thank you. I thought, then, that you might also be interested into listening my rendition as posted in this thread on September 6th :). Please find attached it attached below.
Sor, Fernando - Opus 60 #14 (Jorge - V2).mp3

Best regards,

Jorge
1972 - Kuniharu Nobe #8, 658/51, Spr, RW B&S, Tokio, JPN (under repair)
1979 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.40
1987 - Aria A558, 650/51, Ced, lam RW B&S, Nagoya, JPN
2014 - Hermanos Camps Master Nº 3, 650/52, CAN Ced, MDG RW B&S, Banyoles, ESP

User avatar
hgamboa
Posts: 10
Joined: Fri Oct 06, 2017 2:59 pm
Location: Portugal

Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by hgamboa » Sun Oct 29, 2017 10:15 pm

I've devoted some time this weekend to work on number 2, and reading some prior comments of Yisrael, when working this piece, I confirm that the effort to produce a good sound in a so simple piece forces a lot of the techniques I've been learining in harder composition. Working (or in the attempt to) to clean unwanted sounds by carefully muting the strings, is a concentration task I was not expecting.
But it is rewarding. I'm proud of this recording :D , and open to your comments on where to continue to improve.
Opus60nr2.wma
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Hugo Gamboa
Lisboa, Portugal

Return to “Public Space”