Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

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Jorge Oliveira
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Sun Oct 29, 2017 10:46 pm

hgamboa wrote:
Sun Oct 29, 2017 10:15 pm
... I'm proud of this recording :D ...

Opus60nr2.wma
And proud you should be, Hugo :). Wonderful tone, clean notes, right temp, excellent recording, a pleasure to listen to :D. This #2 is done, time now to move to the #3, a slightly more demanding piece, I would say (I still experience difficulties with it... :(). One advice: as you go along, don't forget to play at least once a day those pieces you have already in your fingers, it helps you to improve them and, above all, avoid to forget them.

With this rendition of yours, the table of posted records is as follows:
Sor's Opus 60 recorded pieces as of 29Oct17.png
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1972 - Kuniharu Nobe #8, 658/51, Spr, RW B&S, Tokio, JPN (under repair)
1979 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.40
1987 - Aria A558, 650/51, Ced, lam RW B&S, Nagoya, JPN
2014 - Hermanos Camps Master Nº 3, 650/52, CAN Ced, MDG RW B&S, Banyoles, ESP

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Jorge Oliveira
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Location: Cascais, Portugal

Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Tue Oct 31, 2017 11:27 am

We have been talking about the difficulty of each of the pieces of Sor's Opus 60. In this post, Steve Langham presents an exhaustive list of Mauro Giuliani and Fernando Sor studies, ordered by degree of difficulty - 1 to 5.

I did some manipulation of this list so as to extract the specific information regarding the 25 pieces of Sor's Opus 60 and put it in the following table:
Grading Sor's Opus 60.png

Looking at this table, no wonder everybody is complaining about the #16 - it is the first time one encounters a grade 4 piece :) . However, for me, as I did not have, yet, developed reasonable sight reading skills, perhaps one extra factor one should take in consideration is how easy it is to memorize a particular piece so as to dispense the use of the score. That depends on the structure of the piece, of course - existence or not or repeated phrases or even whole sections - and, how shall I say it?, how easy its tune stays in our ear. Therefore the #5, for instance, is easy (grade 2) in part because it's a lovely melody (BTW, if you want to play this particular piece at a brisk pace, as you should, then the difficulty increases considerably). This just to say that I'm finding more difficult to learn the #17 than the #16 when I was studying it. The #16 is a beautiful melody that easily goes into your ears, and also has lots of repeated phrases, making it more easily to memorize. Looking at the table again, I do not understand why it classifies the #12 as being grade 3. The tune is beautiful indeed, it's a pleasure to play it, but the counterpoints in it are not easy at all. I would classify it as grade 4 :D.
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1972 - Kuniharu Nobe #8, 658/51, Spr, RW B&S, Tokio, JPN (under repair)
1979 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.40
1987 - Aria A558, 650/51, Ced, lam RW B&S, Nagoya, JPN
2014 - Hermanos Camps Master Nº 3, 650/52, CAN Ced, MDG RW B&S, Banyoles, ESP

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Stephen Kenyon
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Stephen Kenyon » Wed Nov 01, 2017 12:08 am

Jorge Oliveira wrote:
Sun Oct 29, 2017 6:25 pm
.....
Hi Stephen:
As requested by Yisrael, please find below the link from my Dropbox for his rendition of Sor's Opus 60 #14 in .mp3.
Sor_Op60_#14 (Yisrael).mp3
As a side note, I would like you to know that, before I started practising the #14, I looked into your YouTube tutorial on this nice little piece. It was quite helpful, thank you. I thought, then, that you might also be interested into listening my rendition as posted in this thread on September 6th :). Please find attached it attached below.
Sor, Fernando - Opus 60 #14 (Jorge - V2).mp3...
Thanks so much for furnishing those links. Really dedicated work in both. For me both were a little fast, esp the first one, bearing in mind its often harder to play this kind of piece slowly and so is a worthy goal in itself. And I would ask for a bit more care with legato in the places the 2 note chords shift down the strings (D/B->C/A). The 2nd one there could be more legato near the beginning where the E falls to the D sharp, and for everybody in this kind of place its good if at possible to damp the 6th string E. In the first one the low C in the bar before the 1st time bar, needs to be kept while the chords change above (often the hardest bar for many players). Keep it up!
Simon Ambridge Series 40 (2005)
Trevor Semple Series 88 (1992)
Louis Panormo (1838)
Alexander Batov Baroque Guitar (2013)

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Jorge Oliveira
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Wed Nov 01, 2017 12:07 pm

Dear Friends:

October is gone and, as usual, I'll publish some statistical data concerning our participation in this thread for the past month.

Delcamp Forum, Sor's Opus 60 thread - Oct_2017.png
As usual, those with zero posts, posted sometime in the past but not in September. Nevertheless, their names will be kept in the graph so we all know whom ever participated in this Topic.

The graphic that follows present the daily ramp up of posts and views for the last month.

Delcamp Forum, Sor's Opus 60 thread, posts and views - Oct_2017.png

Finally, the next graph depicts the total number of monthly posts and views since this Topic was initiated in December 2016.

Delcamp Forum, Sor's Opus 60 thread - Montlhy Posts & Views_Dec16-Oct17.png

The participation in this Topic is slowly coming back to the levels of last year :D. I thank you all, again, for your support to this Project.

Jorge
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
1972 - Kuniharu Nobe #8, 658/51, Spr, RW B&S, Tokio, JPN (under repair)
1979 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.40
1987 - Aria A558, 650/51, Ced, lam RW B&S, Nagoya, JPN
2014 - Hermanos Camps Master Nº 3, 650/52, CAN Ced, MDG RW B&S, Banyoles, ESP

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Jorge Oliveira
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Thu Nov 02, 2017 1:00 pm

Stephen Kenyon wrote:
Wed Nov 01, 2017 12:08 am
...

Thanks so much for furnishing those links. Really dedicated work in both. For me both were a little fast, esp the first one, bearing in mind its often harder to play this kind of piece slowly and so is a worthy goal in itself. And I would ask for a bit more care with legato in the places the 2 note chords shift down the strings (D/B->C/A). The 2nd one there could be more legato near the beginning where the E falls to the D sharp, and for everybody in this kind of place its good if at possible to damp the 6th string E. In the first one the low C in the bar before the 1st time bar, needs to be kept while the chords change above (often the hardest bar for many players). Keep it up!
Many thanks, Stephen, for caring to have a detailed look into our records of Sor's Opus 60 #14 and provide us with valuable advice concerning our renditions. I'm now studying the #14 again and I expect to post within the next few days a new mp3 rendition (it will be Version 3 :)) taking into account your observations. Thanks again.
1972 - Kuniharu Nobe #8, 658/51, Spr, RW B&S, Tokio, JPN (under repair)
1979 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.40
1987 - Aria A558, 650/51, Ced, lam RW B&S, Nagoya, JPN
2014 - Hermanos Camps Master Nº 3, 650/52, CAN Ced, MDG RW B&S, Banyoles, ESP

Henny
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Henny » Fri Nov 03, 2017 1:16 pm

Hi hgamboa ,

your rendition of this piece is promising.
well done
regards,

Henny

Henny
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Henny » Fri Nov 03, 2017 2:40 pm

hi all
regarding nr 14
appoggiaturas and acciaccaturas are 2 different ways of playing that should sound different.
nr 14 the 2e beat has an acciaccatura which should sound short and clear.

i am starting up after my holidays , i hope to catch up.
regards,

joannes

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Jorge Oliveira
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Mon Nov 06, 2017 11:30 pm

Stephen Kenyon wrote:
Wed Nov 01, 2017 12:08 am
Jorge Oliveira wrote:
Sun Oct 29, 2017 6:25 pm
.....
Hi Stephen:
As requested by Yisrael, please find below the link from my Dropbox for his rendition of Sor's Opus 60 #14 in .mp3.
Sor_Op60_#14 (Yisrael).mp3
As a side note, I would like you to know that, before I started practising the #14, I looked into your YouTube tutorial on this nice little piece. It was quite helpful, thank you. I thought, then, that you might also be interested into listening my rendition as posted in this thread on September 6th :). Please find attached it attached below.
Sor, Fernando - Opus 60 #14 (Jorge - V2).mp3...
Thanks so much for furnishing those links. Really dedicated work in both. For me both were a little fast, esp the first one, bearing in mind its often harder to play this kind of piece slowly and so is a worthy goal in itself. And I would ask for a bit more care with legato in the places the 2 note chords shift down the strings (D/B->C/A). The 2nd one there could be more legato near the beginning where the E falls to the D sharp, and for everybody in this kind of place its good if at possible to damp the 6th string E. In the first one the low C in the bar before the 1st time bar, needs to be kept while the chords change above (often the hardest bar for many players). Keep it up!
Hi Stephen:

Please listen to my rendition of Sor's Opus 60 #14 (V3). I did damp the 6th string E in measures 2 and 6 just after the second beat and also the 5th string A in measure 11 just after the third beat, so as to avoid this note to keep on ringing during measure 12. I've also modified the LH fingering so as to do the legato from E to D sharp in the transition of measure 2 to measure 3. I'm not sure, however, if I'm playing it in the tempo you recommended (slowly). Any comments would be very much appreciated.
Sor, Fernando - Opus 60 #14 (V3).wma
Sor, Fernando - Opus 60 #14 (V3).mp3

Best regards,

Jorge
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
1972 - Kuniharu Nobe #8, 658/51, Spr, RW B&S, Tokio, JPN (under repair)
1979 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.40
1987 - Aria A558, 650/51, Ced, lam RW B&S, Nagoya, JPN
2014 - Hermanos Camps Master Nº 3, 650/52, CAN Ced, MDG RW B&S, Banyoles, ESP

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Stephen Kenyon
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Stephen Kenyon » Wed Nov 08, 2017 3:23 pm

Jorge Oliveira wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2017 11:30 pm
....
Hi Stephen:
Please listen to my rendition of Sor's Opus 60 #14 (V3). I did damp the 6th string E in measures 2 and 6 just after the second beat and also the 5th string A in measure 11 just after the third beat, so as to avoid this note to keep on ringing during measure 12. I've also modified the LH fingering so as to do the legato from E to D sharp in the transition of measure 2 to measure 3. I'm not sure, however, if I'm playing it in the tempo you recommended (slowly). Any comments would be very much appreciated.
Sor, Fernando - Opus 60 #14 (V3).wma
Sor, Fernando - Opus 60 #14 (V3).mp3
Best regards,
Jorge
Its loads better! :D

I like the tempo very much, the piece seems quite sombre and dark to me, with little discernible dance character so bringing out the vocal style and character fits it like that.

Personally I prefer normally to damp after the new note but I appreciate it can be tricky to coordinate that and keep playing with the fingers. This piece if slow enough can allow that so its worth a try. The point is that if the damping action is swift enough the new bass note covers up the slight overlap (underlap, as its beneath?) and the impression is of a purer legato. If we damp before, the legato always goes.

The low G sharp after the 2nd time bar is tricky to sustain for its duration but it we reach a bit more then it can usually be held to link (legato again!) to the A which is its resolution. I liked the slight stress on the G sharp - also, it makes it a major chord so standing out from before - but we are still getting a detached change of position in the following bar, I'd rather those descending 3rds were legato.

Maybe now look for more opportunities to dramatise whatever gloominess the composer is dwelling on here ...
Simon Ambridge Series 40 (2005)
Trevor Semple Series 88 (1992)
Louis Panormo (1838)
Alexander Batov Baroque Guitar (2013)

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Jorge Oliveira
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Wed Nov 08, 2017 4:03 pm

Stephen Kenyon wrote:
Wed Nov 08, 2017 3:23 pm
Jorge Oliveira wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2017 11:30 pm
....
Hi Stephen:
Please listen to my rendition of Sor's Opus 60 #14 (V3). I did damp the 6th string E in measures 2 and 6 just after the second beat and also the 5th string A in measure 11 just after the third beat, so as to avoid this note to keep on ringing during measure 12. I've also modified the LH fingering so as to do the legato from E to D sharp in the transition of measure 2 to measure 3. I'm not sure, however, if I'm playing it in the tempo you recommended (slowly). Any comments would be very much appreciated.
Sor, Fernando - Opus 60 #14 (V3).wma
Sor, Fernando - Opus 60 #14 (V3).mp3
Best regards,
Jorge
Its loads better! :D

I like the tempo very much, the piece seems quite sombre and dark to me, with little discernible dance character so bringing out the vocal style and character fits it like that.

Personally I prefer normally to damp after the new note but I appreciate it can be tricky to coordinate that and keep playing with the fingers. This piece if slow enough can allow that so its worth a try. The point is that if the damping action is swift enough the new bass note covers up the slight overlap (underlap, as its beneath?) and the impression is of a purer legato. If we damp before, the legato always goes.

The low G sharp after the 2nd time bar is tricky to sustain for its duration but it we reach a bit more then it can usually be held to link (legato again!) to the A which is its resolution. I liked the slight stress on the G sharp - also, it makes it a major chord so standing out from before - but we are still getting a detached change of position in the following bar, I'd rather those descending 3rds were legato.

Maybe now look for more opportunities to dramatise whatever gloominess the composer is dwelling on here ...
:D... Thank you so much for your comments and suggestions, Stephen, they are most welcome and quite encouraging. Yes, I fully agree, there is some inherent drama and dark mood in this piece and the tempo must reflect it. I'm glad you liked it. I'll keep on working on this piece trying to do the damping of the E bass after the note - I think I can do it - and also playing measures 10 and 11 as you recommend - connecting the G sharp with the A and do the descending 3rds in legato mode.

It's amazing how there can exist so many details to consider in such a simple piece, I wouldn't have noticed half of them if it were not for the comments one receives after posting a rendition :).

Thanks again for your help,

Jorge
1972 - Kuniharu Nobe #8, 658/51, Spr, RW B&S, Tokio, JPN (under repair)
1979 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.40
1987 - Aria A558, 650/51, Ced, lam RW B&S, Nagoya, JPN
2014 - Hermanos Camps Master Nº 3, 650/52, CAN Ced, MDG RW B&S, Banyoles, ESP

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Jorge Oliveira
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Wed Nov 08, 2017 6:03 pm

Hi all:

My first rendition of Sor's Opus 60 #16, posted in September 22nd, had some wrong notes (my friend Monique, from Delft, called my attention to it :)). So, I assigned myself the task of posting a new rendition, this time, hopefully, without blatant errors. There you have it, then, below. As usual, the record was produced with the Zoom Handy Recorder app on my iPhone, the sound capture being made by an iRig microphone that connects directly to the iPhone. The guitar used was a Julian Espinosa 1980 I borrowed from a friend, fitted with D'Addario EJ45, Normal Tension strings. The resulting .wav file was then processed with the Audacity audio editor on Windows 10 to produce the .wma and .mp3 files below.
Sor, Fernando - Opus 60 #16 (V2).wma
Sor, Fernando - Opus 60 #16 (V2).mp3

Any comments are most welcome (too slow, perhaps?).
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
1972 - Kuniharu Nobe #8, 658/51, Spr, RW B&S, Tokio, JPN (under repair)
1979 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.40
1987 - Aria A558, 650/51, Ced, lam RW B&S, Nagoya, JPN
2014 - Hermanos Camps Master Nº 3, 650/52, CAN Ced, MDG RW B&S, Banyoles, ESP

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Stephen Kenyon
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Stephen Kenyon » Wed Nov 08, 2017 7:12 pm

Jorge Oliveira wrote:
Wed Nov 08, 2017 6:03 pm
Hi all:

My first rendition of Sor's Opus 60 #16, posted in September 22nd, had some wrong notes (my friend Monique, from Delft, called my attention to it :)). So, I assigned myself the task of posting a new rendition, this time, hopefully, without blatant errors. There you have it, then, below. As usual, the ...
Any comments are most welcome (too slow, perhaps?).
Going very nicely! - I suggest check out Rob's take on this to get into the speed of the quick notes towards the end; they do need to be timed and not just zoomed along, so hearing Rob might help with that :bravo:
Simon Ambridge Series 40 (2005)
Trevor Semple Series 88 (1992)
Louis Panormo (1838)
Alexander Batov Baroque Guitar (2013)

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Jorge Oliveira
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Wed Nov 08, 2017 7:47 pm

Stephen Kenyon wrote:
Wed Nov 08, 2017 7:12 pm
Jorge Oliveira wrote:
Wed Nov 08, 2017 6:03 pm
Hi all:

My first rendition of Sor's Opus 60 #16, posted in September 22nd, had some wrong notes (my friend Monique, from Delft, called my attention to it :)). So, I assigned myself the task of posting a new rendition, this time, hopefully, without blatant errors. There you have it, then, below. As usual, the ...
Any comments are most welcome (too slow, perhaps?).
Going very nicely! - I suggest check out Rob's take on this to get into the speed of the quick notes towards the end; they do need to be timed and not just zoomed along, so hearing Rob might help with that :bravo:
Thanks, Stephen. As for Rob's post, I remember one, vaguely, where he made a reference to Gina Lolobrigida concerning these quick notes... :D. That's certainly the one you are referring to, no? I'll have a look at it. I must say I'm not happy with this rendition of the #16 (V2), I'm sure I can improve it. Give me, please, some more days and I'll post a new rendition.
1972 - Kuniharu Nobe #8, 658/51, Spr, RW B&S, Tokio, JPN (under repair)
1979 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.40
1987 - Aria A558, 650/51, Ced, lam RW B&S, Nagoya, JPN
2014 - Hermanos Camps Master Nº 3, 650/52, CAN Ced, MDG RW B&S, Banyoles, ESP

User avatar
Stephen Kenyon
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Stephen Kenyon » Wed Nov 08, 2017 10:25 pm

Jorge Oliveira wrote:
Wed Nov 08, 2017 7:47 pm
... As for Rob's post, I remember one, vaguely, where he made a reference to Gina Lolobrigida concerning these quick notes... :D. That's certainly the one you are referring to, no? I'll have a look at it. I must say I'm not happy with this rendition of the #16 (V2), I'm sure I can improve it. Give me, please, some more days and I'll post a new rendition.
Yes that's the one, early on in the thread, the name thing being a way to count the rhythm. Also useful to listen to the model and understand it that way as well ...
Simon Ambridge Series 40 (2005)
Trevor Semple Series 88 (1992)
Louis Panormo (1838)
Alexander Batov Baroque Guitar (2013)

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Yisrael van Handel
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Yisrael van Handel » Thu Nov 09, 2017 8:52 pm

Stephen Kenyon wrote:
Wed Nov 01, 2017 12:08 am
<snip> For me both were a little fast, esp the first one, bearing in mind its often harder to play this kind of piece slowly and so is a worthy goal in itself. And I would ask for a bit more care with legato in the places the 2 note chords shift down the strings (D/B->C/A). The 2nd one there could be more legato near the beginning where the E falls to the D sharp, and for everybody in this kind of place its good if at possible to damp the 6th string E. In the first one the low C in the bar before the 1st time bar, needs to be kept while the chords change above (often the hardest bar for many players). Keep it up!
Hi, Steve,
I would like to thank you for participating in this thread. Your comments are exceedingly helpful. I have not until now paid the strictest attention to three things you mentioned: holding bass notes to their full value, stopping notes where needed, and making sure that position changes are instantaneous. The first two make fingering much more complex and demand a great deal of attention; the third is simply a question of practice, stability, and improving technique.I believe that I have advanced enough that I am ready to tackle all three. I am working on them. I plan to post #14 again, and to apply lessons learned for future pieces. It requires a completely different way of practicing, with much more attention to and analysis of mechanical motion. I am expecting significant results. Again, many thanks for your comments, without which I would not have been inspired to take these steps.
Yisrael van Handel
Modi'in Ilit, Israel

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