Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

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Stephen Kenyon
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Stephen Kenyon » Thu Nov 09, 2017 9:00 pm

Yisrael van Handel wrote:
Thu Nov 09, 2017 8:52 pm
...
Hi, Steve,
I would like to thank you for participating in this thread. Your comments are exceedingly helpful. I have not until now paid the strictest attention to three things you mentioned: holding bass notes to their full value, stopping notes where needed, and making sure that position changes are instantaneous. The first two make fingering much more complex and demand a great deal of attention; the third is simply a question of practice, stability, and improving technique.I believe that I have advanced enough that I am ready to tackle all three. I am working on them. I plan to post #14 again, and to apply lessons learned for future pieces. It requires a completely different way of practicing, with much more attention to and analysis of mechanical motion. I am expecting significant results. Again, many thanks for your comments, without which I would not have been inspired to take these steps.
Extremely cool, looks like things are sinking in :bravo:

Yes to the mechanical analysis, in the service of your musical ideas!
Simon Ambridge Series 40 (2005)
Trevor Semple Series 88 (1992)
Louis Panormo (1838)
Alexander Batov Baroque Guitar (2013)

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Jorge Oliveira
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Sun Nov 12, 2017 12:09 am

I'm now posting Sor's Opus 60 #17 for you all to listen to and comment. As usual, the record was produced with the Zoom Handy Recorder app on my iPhone, the sound capture being made by an iRig microphone that connects directly to the iPhone. The guitar used was my Aria A558 with D'Addario EJ46FF, High Tension strings (days old only :D). The resulting .wav file was then processed with the Audacity audio editor on Windows 10 to produce the .wma file below. My impressions of this piece are, as usual, in green:

Sor’s Opus 60, Nº 17. Learning period: 22Sep17 - 11Nov17. Comment: The difficulty in this piece is that there are different RH fingerings for the same chords along the score. It took me ages to memorize it. I'm not sure if I'm playing fast enough (Allegro moderato). Anyway, I'll keep on playing it, daily, and I'll be able to, not only increase the speed, if necessary, but also, certainly, achieve a more steady tempo within a couple of months.
Sor, Fernando - Opus 60 #17.wma
Sor, Fernando - Opus 60 #17.mp3

So, now, the table of posted studies is the following:
Sor's Opus 60 recorded pieces as of 11Nov17.png

My next self-assignment is to post a sound file of the #18 study. But before that, as recommended by Stephen Kenyon, I'll work further on the #14 and #16 and post new versions.

Edited to correct the reference of the present piece from Nº 15 (V1) to Nº 17.
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Last edited by Jorge Oliveira on Wed Nov 15, 2017 12:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
1972 - Kuniharu Nobe #8, 658/51, Spr, RW B&S, Tokio, JPN (under repair)
1979 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.40
1987 - Aria A558, 650/51, Ced, lam RW B&S, Nagoya, JPN
2014 - Hermanos Camps Master Nº 3, 650/52, CAN Ced, MDG RW B&S, Banyoles, ESP

Henny
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Henny » Mon Nov 13, 2017 11:43 am

hello all, jorge
i just listened to nr 16 Jorge had posted.
as it is clear work needs to be done to have the quick notes executed in time.
i am now working on this same piece , it will take some time however for me to post a good rendition.
i hope technically we all can work on the slurs and quick notes..it will come more and more often in the pieces of Sor and without real dedication to this there is no progress to be expected.
lets see how quick i can join you again with nr 16.
Henny

Henny
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Henny » Mon Nov 13, 2017 11:43 am

hello all, jorge
i just listened to nr 16 Jorge had posted.
as it is clear work needs to be done to have the quick notes executed in time.
i am now working on this same piece , it will take some time however for me to post a good rendition.
i hope technically we all can work on the slurs and quick notes..it will come more and more often in the pieces of Sor and without real dedication to this there is no progress to be expected.
lets see how quick i can join you again with nr 16.
Henny

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Jorge Oliveira
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Mon Nov 13, 2017 12:26 pm

Henny wrote:
Mon Nov 13, 2017 11:43 am
hello all, jorge
i just listened to nr 16 Jorge had posted.
as it is clear work needs to be done to have the quick notes executed in time.
i am now working on this same piece , it will take some time however for me to post a good rendition.
i hope technically we all can work on the slurs and quick notes..it will come more and more often in the pieces of Sor and without real dedication to this there is no progress to be expected.
lets see how quick i can join you again with nr 16.
Henny
Many thanks for your comments, Henny. As recommended by Stephen Kenyon, I am, in fact, working again on the fast slurs of the #16 in order to make their sound clear and within the tempo. I'm using a metronome for that. I'm also trying to follow the good advices Stephen provided me to further improve the #14. Finally, I've already started with the #18. I hope it doesn't take me as long as the #17 to memorize it.

Best regards,

Jorge
1972 - Kuniharu Nobe #8, 658/51, Spr, RW B&S, Tokio, JPN (under repair)
1979 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.40
1987 - Aria A558, 650/51, Ced, lam RW B&S, Nagoya, JPN
2014 - Hermanos Camps Master Nº 3, 650/52, CAN Ced, MDG RW B&S, Banyoles, ESP

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Jorge Oliveira
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Wed Nov 15, 2017 12:44 am

Stephen Kenyon wrote:
Wed Nov 08, 2017 3:23 pm
Jorge Oliveira wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2017 11:30 pm
....
Hi Stephen:
Please listen to my rendition of Sor's Opus 60 #14 (V3). I did damp the 6th string E in measures 2 and 6 just after the second beat and also the 5th string A in measure 11 just after the third beat, so as to avoid this note to keep on ringing during measure 12. I've also modified the LH fingering so as to do the legato from E to D sharp in the transition of measure 2 to measure 3. I'm not sure, however, if I'm playing it in the tempo you recommended (slowly). Any comments would be very much appreciated.
Sor, Fernando - Opus 60 #14 (V3).wma
Sor, Fernando - Opus 60 #14 (V3).mp3
Best regards,
Jorge
Its loads better! :D

I like the tempo very much, the piece seems quite sombre and dark to me, with little discernible dance character so bringing out the vocal style and character fits it like that.

Personally I prefer normally to damp after the new note but I appreciate it can be tricky to coordinate that and keep playing with the fingers. This piece if slow enough can allow that so its worth a try. The point is that if the damping action is swift enough the new bass note covers up the slight overlap (underlap, as its beneath?) and the impression is of a purer legato. If we damp before, the legato always goes.

The low G sharp after the 2nd time bar is tricky to sustain for its duration but it we reach a bit more then it can usually be held to link (legato again!) to the A which is its resolution. I liked the slight stress on the G sharp - also, it makes it a major chord so standing out from before - but we are still getting a detached change of position in the following bar, I'd rather those descending 3rds were legato.

Maybe now look for more opportunities to dramatise whatever gloominess the composer is dwelling on here ...
This is my last attempt at Sor's Opus 60 #14 - version 4:
Sor, Fernando - Opus 60 #14 (V4).wma
Sor, Fernando - Opus 60 #14 (V4).mp3

In order to emphasize the gloominess of the composition, I slowed the tempo a little bit in this V4, when compared with V3. I've also damped the E bass in measure 2 after the following E played in string 4, and the E bass in measure 6 after the following E treble, as recommended. Does it sounds better this time?

Concerning the first damp, I noticed that the E played in string 4 somehow adds adds extra energy to the already dying E and its damping provokes sometimes an audible buzz. One must be careful with this aspect.

Finally, during the first passage of measure 15, the first set of notes did not come out clear :(. It happens... :D
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1972 - Kuniharu Nobe #8, 658/51, Spr, RW B&S, Tokio, JPN (under repair)
1979 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.40
1987 - Aria A558, 650/51, Ced, lam RW B&S, Nagoya, JPN
2014 - Hermanos Camps Master Nº 3, 650/52, CAN Ced, MDG RW B&S, Banyoles, ESP

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Stephen Kenyon
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Stephen Kenyon » Wed Nov 15, 2017 7:22 pm

Jorge Oliveira wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 12:44 am
..
This is my last attempt at Sor's Opus 60 #14 - version 4:
Sor, Fernando - Opus 60 #14 (V4).wma
Sor, Fernando - Opus 60 #14 (V4).mp3

In order to emphasize the gloominess of the composition, I slowed the tempo a little bit in this V4, when compared with V3. I've also damped the E bass in measure 2 after the following E played in string 4, and the E bass in measure 6 after the following E treble, as recommended. Does it sounds better this time?

Concerning the first damp, I noticed that the E played in string 4 somehow adds adds extra energy to the already dying E and its damping provokes sometimes an audible buzz. One must be careful with this aspect.

Finally, during the first passage of measure 15, the first set of notes did not come out clear :(. It happens... :D
Well that's much more how I like it. The resonance issue with the E didn't come over as a problem. Yes stuff happens. :casque:
Simon Ambridge Series 40 (2005)
Trevor Semple Series 88 (1992)
Louis Panormo (1838)
Alexander Batov Baroque Guitar (2013)

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Jorge Oliveira
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Thu Nov 16, 2017 3:18 pm

Stephen Kenyon wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 7:22 pm
...
Well that's much more how I like it. The resonance issue with the E didn't come over as a problem. Yes stuff happens. :casque:
Thanks, Stephen, for all your help on this #14. From now onwards I'll just have to practice to perfect it.

There follows the #16 and Rob's famous "Gina Lolobrigida" on the fast notes :lol:. I've looked into the his record and, indeed, his notes come out clean and in tempo. But, one must agree, among other and important advantages over me :), he has two significant ones: his extremely long fingers (and mines are not small at all) and he is playing a smaller Early Romantic guitar :D. I'll with a metronome, starting very slowly and increasing the speed as I go along. Give me, please, some few days more...
1972 - Kuniharu Nobe #8, 658/51, Spr, RW B&S, Tokio, JPN (under repair)
1979 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.40
1987 - Aria A558, 650/51, Ced, lam RW B&S, Nagoya, JPN
2014 - Hermanos Camps Master Nº 3, 650/52, CAN Ced, MDG RW B&S, Banyoles, ESP

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Stephen Kenyon
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Stephen Kenyon » Thu Nov 16, 2017 7:18 pm

Jorge Oliveira wrote:
Thu Nov 16, 2017 3:18 pm
....
There follows the #16 and Rob's famous "Gina Lolobrigida" on the fast notes :lol:. I've looked into the his record and, indeed, his notes come out clean and in tempo. But, one must agree, among other and important advantages over me :), he has two significant ones: his extremely long fingers (and mines are not small at all) and he is playing a smaller Early Romantic guitar :D. I'll with a metronome, starting very slowly and increasing the speed as I go along. Give me, please, some few days more...
Go for it do. Note though that the quick notes in the other one are not actually a big stretch being only from II to V and the groupings are all on the top string. Sometimes things just look or sound harder than they are.
Simon Ambridge Series 40 (2005)
Trevor Semple Series 88 (1992)
Louis Panormo (1838)
Alexander Batov Baroque Guitar (2013)

mainterm
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by mainterm » Fri Nov 17, 2017 9:50 pm

This is a cool project - nice to see technology used this way, a virtual study group.

Keep up the work folks!

One general thing to consider (for us all really) is to be able to play two, three and four notes exactly together. Of course for expressive reasons or when specifically notated, overt rolling or subtle rolling may be used, but we should always be able to play stacked notes precisely together or as close as we can get.

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Jorge Oliveira
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Sat Nov 18, 2017 1:08 pm

mainterm wrote:
Fri Nov 17, 2017 9:50 pm
This is a cool project - nice to see technology used this way, a virtual study group.

Keep up the work folks!

One general thing to consider (for us all really) is to be able to play two, three and four notes exactly together. Of course for expressive reasons or when specifically notated, overt rolling or subtle rolling may be used, but we should always be able to play stacked notes precisely together or as close as we can get.
Thank you, mainterm, it was, indeed, a good idea to set it up, almost a year ago has gone by and the Topic is still pretty much alive.

Concerning your remark "one general thing to consider ..." on one being able to play together all notes present in a beat, did it originate from listening to any one of our renditions in particular where this thing did not occur? If that was the case, it might be useful to point out where exactly it happened so that one could have a look at it and, eventually, improve our playing. Would you do that for us, please?
1972 - Kuniharu Nobe #8, 658/51, Spr, RW B&S, Tokio, JPN (under repair)
1979 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.40
1987 - Aria A558, 650/51, Ced, lam RW B&S, Nagoya, JPN
2014 - Hermanos Camps Master Nº 3, 650/52, CAN Ced, MDG RW B&S, Banyoles, ESP

mainterm
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by mainterm » Sat Nov 18, 2017 8:03 pm

Thanks Jorge.

My comment originates from my early days of study. "you are splitting the notes" my teacher said and asked me why I was doing that.

She remarked that there is nothing inherently wrong with such articulations but that you must be able to control them and use them artistically/musically not habitually.

More recently another master told me "you aren't playing the notes together" - from my view I *was* playing the notes together but upon a really focused listening I realized that he was right. We are talking really subtle here.

Given how we use our fingers to pluck the strings I think it may be impossible to always play notes absolutely together without any split, but like we will never pluck a series of notes on a single string with perfect legato, we may get close enough that no one notices or that it just doesn't matter.

In the series you are working on in this thread, I listened to two renditions of No.14 in E minor. Both of them more or less have a sprinkling of split notes, usually on the down beats, but in other places too.

Regarding the one you most recently posted (V4) I think - listen back and see if you can discern this subtle split in the RH articulation of the chords, especially when things get a little more movement, i.e. mm. 11-12. Compare for example how you play m.4 repeat 1 to other chords, especially 3 notes ones.

This is just something to think about - and work on if you consider it important. Some players just don't think it matters.

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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Stephen Kenyon » Sat Nov 18, 2017 8:46 pm

mainterm wrote:
Sat Nov 18, 2017 8:03 pm
My comment originates from my early days of study. "you are splitting the notes" my teacher said and asked me why I was doing that.

She remarked that there is nothing inherently wrong with such articulations but that you must be able to control them and use them artistically/musically not habitually.
...
This is just something to think about - and work on if you consider it important. Some players just don't think it matters.
FWIW - I completely concur with the above. It was not something I thought worth raising in feedback given to no. 14. But always - be able to choose.
Simon Ambridge Series 40 (2005)
Trevor Semple Series 88 (1992)
Louis Panormo (1838)
Alexander Batov Baroque Guitar (2013)

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Jorge Oliveira
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Sat Nov 18, 2017 9:59 pm

mainterm wrote:
Sat Nov 18, 2017 8:03 pm
Thanks Jorge.

My comment originates from my early days of study. "you are splitting the notes" my teacher said and asked me why I was doing that.

...

In the series you are working on in this thread, I listened to two renditions of No.14 in E minor. Both of them more or less have a sprinkling of split notes, usually on the down beats, but in other places too.

Regarding the one you most recently posted (V4) I think - listen back and see if you can discern this subtle split in the RH articulation of the chords, especially when things get a little more movement, i.e. mm. 11-12. Compare for example how you play m.4 repeat 1 to other chords, especially 3 notes ones.

This is just something to think about - and work on if you consider it important. Some players just don't think it matters.
Stephen Kenyon wrote:
Sat Nov 18, 2017 8:46 pm

...

FWIW - I completely concur with the above. It was not something I thought worth raising in feedback given to no. 14. But always - be able to choose.
Thanks mainterm and Stephen, for your comments above. Once you, mainterm, pointed out where in my V4 of Sor's #14 in E Minor I was "splitting the notes" - measures 11 and 12 - I realized immediately what I was doing (didn't have to listen to the record, I just fetch the guitar, played the measures ... and that was it). And I also realized that I was splitting the notes also in the first beat of measure 23. And I also do it, extensively :oops:, in measures 9-16 of the #13... Thanks again, both of you. I'll correct this in the #14 and I'll be on the alert in other pieces where I certainly did split notes unnecessarily :).
1972 - Kuniharu Nobe #8, 658/51, Spr, RW B&S, Tokio, JPN (under repair)
1979 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.40
1987 - Aria A558, 650/51, Ced, lam RW B&S, Nagoya, JPN
2014 - Hermanos Camps Master Nº 3, 650/52, CAN Ced, MDG RW B&S, Banyoles, ESP

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Yisrael van Handel
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Yisrael van Handel » Sun Nov 19, 2017 8:22 pm

I just wanted to let you know that I am with you and working very hard on Version 2 of #14. I am pleased with the progress (there is nothing like extended practice and carefully and slowly isolating problems and solving them). After midterm raised the issue of uncoordinated chords (split notes), I have more work to do. I listened carefully to Jorge's rendition, and am trying to achieve the same level of smoothness. It is very helpful that several people are working on and commenting on the same piece. This is a great thread! Thanks everyone.
Yisrael van Handel
Modi'in Ilit, Israel

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