Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Discussions relating to the classical guitar which don't fit elsewhere.
Steve Langham
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Steve Langham » Mon Nov 20, 2017 3:52 am

Jorge Oliveira wrote:
Tue Oct 31, 2017 11:27 am
We have been talking about the difficulty of each of the pieces of Sor's Opus 60. In this post, Steve Langham presents an exhaustive list of Mauro Giuliani and Fernando Sor studies, ordered by degree of difficulty - 1 to 5.
Hi Jorge

Just seen your post - I wanted to clear up a couple of things. The credit for the exhaustive list should go do Luis_Br, a member here who put the list together. The 'Difficulty' column is a rough guide as to the difficulty of the piece, it's not the official grading of the piece though. My addition to this list was to add in instances where these pieces appeared in the Australian Music Exam Board (AMEB) and have therefore been officially graded to give others an idea of the difficulty of a piece as per an official music exam board.
In the case of Op 60 # 16, this is actually seen as a grade 6 piece within the AMEB so that's a high level given were you started at Op 60 #1 !

Cheers

Steve

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Jorge Oliveira
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Mon Nov 20, 2017 11:13 am

Steve Langham wrote:
Mon Nov 20, 2017 3:52 am
Jorge Oliveira wrote:
Tue Oct 31, 2017 11:27 am
We have been talking about the difficulty of each of the pieces of Sor's Opus 60. In this post, Steve Langham presents an exhaustive list of Mauro Giuliani and Fernando Sor studies, ordered by degree of difficulty - 1 to 5.
Hi Jorge

Just seen your post - I wanted to clear up a couple of things. The credit for the exhaustive list should go do Luis_Br, a member here who put the list together. The 'Difficulty' column is a rough guide as to the difficulty of the piece, it's not the official grading of the piece though. My addition to this list was to add in instances where these pieces appeared in the Australian Music Exam Board (AMEB) and have therefore been officially graded to give others an idea of the difficulty of a piece as per an official music exam board.
In the case of Op 60 # 16, this is actually seen as a grade 6 piece within the AMEB so that's a high level given were you started at Op 60 #1 !

Cheers

Steve
Hi Steve:

Thanks for your compliment on my guitar progress and for clarifying things concerning the list of Sor and Giulianni studies. Indeed, I should have been more careful :oops:. In fact, I'm thinking of publishing an extract of Luis_Br's exhaustive list but this time focusing on Opus 31 which we - the Opus 60 group - are thinking to tackle as a follow up Project, and this time I won't forget to mention Luis_Br :).

Best regards,

Jorge
1972 - Kuniharu Nobe #8, 658/51, Spr, RW B&S, Tokio, JP
1979 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.40, 650/51, Ced, RW B&S, JP
1987 - Aria A558, 650/51, Ced, lam RW B&S, Nagoya, JP
2014 - Hermanos Camps Master Nº 3, 650/52, CA Ced, MG RW B&S, Banyoles, ES

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Jorge Oliveira
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Mon Nov 20, 2017 11:18 am

Luis_Br wrote:
Thu Oct 07, 2010 12:09 pm

...
To those who want to play all studies, here there is a progressive selection of Sor and Giuliani studies made by Antonio Guedes (same guy from Sor five-days selection I've posted before):
Studies are grouped with '*', where (*) means easy, up to (******) very hard.
Giuliani (*) op 50 nº 1
Giuliani (*) op 50 nº 2
Giuliani (*) op 50 nº 3
---
Hi Luis:

I want to apologise for, as pointed out by Steve in his post above, not having given you explicit credit for the elaboration of the "exhaustive list of Mauro Giuliani and Fernando Sor studies, ordered by degree of difficulty - 1 to 5" I mentioned in my post of October 31st :oops:. It was quite a job, and a most useful, too, many thanks :).

Best regards,

Jorge
1972 - Kuniharu Nobe #8, 658/51, Spr, RW B&S, Tokio, JP
1979 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.40, 650/51, Ced, RW B&S, JP
1987 - Aria A558, 650/51, Ced, lam RW B&S, Nagoya, JP
2014 - Hermanos Camps Master Nº 3, 650/52, CA Ced, MG RW B&S, Banyoles, ES

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Jorge Oliveira
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Wed Nov 22, 2017 12:31 am

mainterm wrote:
Sat Nov 18, 2017 8:03 pm
...
In the series you are working on in this thread, I listened to two renditions of No.14 in E minor. Both of them more or less have a sprinkling of split notes, usually on the down beats, but in other places too.

Regarding the one you most recently posted (V4) I think - listen back and see if you can discern this subtle split in the RH articulation of the chords, especially when things get a little more movement, i.e. mm. 11-12. Compare for example how you play m.4 repeat 1 to other chords, especially 3 notes ones.

This is just something to think about - and work on if you consider it important. Some players just don't think it matters.
Stephen Kenyon wrote:
Sat Nov 18, 2017 8:46 pm
...
FWIW - I completely concur with the above. It was not something I thought worth raising in feedback given to no. 14. But always - be able to choose.
There you are, I'm posting again a record of Sor's Opus 60 No.14 in E Minor (Version 5), with the notes damped as suggested by you, Stephen, and without splitting the notes in measures 11, 12 and 23, as pointed out by you, mainterm. It is not yet perfect but I think I'm moving now in the right direction and paying proper attention to this issue.
Sor, Fernando - Opus 60 #14 (V5).wma
Sor, Fernando - Opus 60 #14 (V5).mp3

Nevertheless, one doubt still lingers in my mind: the splitting of notes is something that should not be done always, or are there occasions when this is, say, acceptable? For instance, I listen quite often to renditions where some accords are played in a fast arpeggio fashion. Can we accept this sort of freedom in the player as part of his "interpretation" of a particular piece, or should this be precluded completely from normal practice?
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1972 - Kuniharu Nobe #8, 658/51, Spr, RW B&S, Tokio, JP
1979 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.40, 650/51, Ced, RW B&S, JP
1987 - Aria A558, 650/51, Ced, lam RW B&S, Nagoya, JP
2014 - Hermanos Camps Master Nº 3, 650/52, CA Ced, MG RW B&S, Banyoles, ES

mainterm
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by mainterm » Wed Nov 22, 2017 7:23 am

Jorge Oliveira wrote:
Wed Nov 22, 2017 12:31 am
Nevertheless, one doubt still lingers in my mind: the splitting of notes is something that should not be done always, or are there occasions when this is, say, acceptable? For instance, I listen quite often to renditions where some accords are played in a fast arpeggio fashion. Can we accept this sort of freedom in the player as part of his "interpretation" of a particular piece, or should this be precluded completely from normal practice?
The point I was hoping to make is that habitual splitting limits your expression. Be able to do it both ways.

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Yisrael van Handel
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Yisrael van Handel » Wed Nov 22, 2017 8:40 pm

Stephen Kenyon wrote:
Wed Nov 01, 2017 12:08 am
<snip> And I would ask for a bit more care with legato in the places the 2 note chords shift down the strings (D/B->C/A). The 2nd one there could be more legato near the beginning where the E falls to the D sharp, and for everybody in this kind of place its good if at possible to damp the 6th string E. In the first one the low C in the bar before the 1st time bar, needs to be kept while the chords change above (often the hardest bar for many players). Keep it up!
This is my version 2 of Opus 60, #14. I have had the benefits of many comments both on my version and Jorge's version, and have tried to take a lot of them into account. On the other hand, there are still some rough chord changes, especially in the next to the last bar. I will continue to work on that in other pieces. Your comments have been extremely valuable. That is what this thread is about, and what gives it value. Please continue to comment.
Sor_Op60_#14.wma
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Yisrael van Handel
Modi'in Ilit, Israel

mainterm
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by mainterm » Wed Nov 22, 2017 10:42 pm

Yisrael van Handel wrote:
Wed Nov 22, 2017 8:40 pm
This is my version 2 of Opus 60, #14. ...<snip>... Please continue to comment.
Sor_Op60_#14.wma
Hello Yisrael,

Nice work with this piece - after reading some of the posts on this thread and re-familiarizing myself with op.60, I've decided to re-set the music, maybe modernize a few things here and there - I'm nearly done with the initial draft of the entire set.

Needless to say, I've been in the details a bit and have noticed some differences between what you are playing and what is in the score - or perhaps the edition you are using may have typos or editorial "adjustments"?

Here's what I noticed:

I'm not hearing an "A" below the "C" in the upper voice, downbeat of m.2,
check the F# in m.7 (I'm hearing F-nat) and
check the [e-g#-e] eighth note figure in m.12 (I'm hearing g#-e-g#).
I didn't hear an A half note in the bass of m.22, downbeat and also no A quarter in the middle voice beat 2.

As for the penultimate measure, may I ask which RH fingering you are using?

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Jorge Oliveira
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Thu Nov 23, 2017 1:21 pm

mainterm wrote:
Wed Nov 22, 2017 7:23 am
Jorge Oliveira wrote:
Wed Nov 22, 2017 12:31 am
Nevertheless, one doubt still lingers in my mind: the splitting of notes is something that should not be done always, or are there occasions when this is, say, acceptable? For instance, I listen quite often to renditions where some accords are played in a fast arpeggio fashion. Can we accept this sort of freedom in the player as part of his "interpretation" of a particular piece, or should this be precluded completely from normal practice?
The point I was hoping to make is that habitual splitting limits your expression. Be able to do it both ways.
I understand your point, mainterm, and fully agree with it - notes splitting should be used with parsimony, if at all, so as to enhance your expression at a particular and thoughtfully chosen part of the composition. An example might be the 3rd beat (g-b-d) of measure 34 in Sor's Opus 60 No.16, which could be played as a fast arpeggio. I think I saw this in Rob Mackillop's rendition posted in this thread on 9-Dec-16, 19:13h. This is the single point in the whole composition where he splits a group of three notes and I liked the effect. Thanks again for your advice.
1972 - Kuniharu Nobe #8, 658/51, Spr, RW B&S, Tokio, JP
1979 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.40, 650/51, Ced, RW B&S, JP
1987 - Aria A558, 650/51, Ced, lam RW B&S, Nagoya, JP
2014 - Hermanos Camps Master Nº 3, 650/52, CA Ced, MG RW B&S, Banyoles, ES

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Jorge Oliveira
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Thu Nov 23, 2017 2:02 pm

Yisrael van Handel wrote:
Wed Nov 22, 2017 8:40 pm
Stephen Kenyon wrote:
Wed Nov 01, 2017 12:08 am
<snip> And I would ask for a bit more care with legato in the places the 2 note chords shift down the strings (D/B->C/A). The 2nd one there could be more legato near the beginning where the E falls to the D sharp, and for everybody in this kind of place its good if at possible to damp the 6th string E. In the first one the low C in the bar before the 1st time bar, needs to be kept while the chords change above (often the hardest bar for many players). Keep it up!
This is my version 2 of Opus 60, #14. I have had the benefits of many comments both on my version and Jorge's version, and have tried to take a lot of them into account. On the other hand, there are still some rough chord changes, especially in the next to the last bar. I will continue to work on that in other pieces. Your comments have been extremely valuable. That is what this thread is about, and what gives it value. Please continue to comment.
Sor_Op60_#14.wma
Hi Yisrael: :(

Thanks for posting your second rendition of Sor's Opus 60 #14. I listened to it a few times and indeed noticed that there was somewhere a wrong note in measure 7 (which mainterm then clearly identified :)). I also noticed a slowing in tempo in measures 12-13, as well as those "rough chord changes" towards the end. Beyond correcting the notes mainterm has already pointed out, it might be useful to look at Stephen Kenyon's video lesson on this piece on Youtube. It helped me a lot. Another thought that comes to my mind is that it might be worth, perhaps, to slow your tempo a bit until you have all these issues under control, and then, go back, slowly, to your usual speed.

Best regards,

Jorge

PS: I'm still struggling with the two groups of fast notes on the #16, specially the second one. Somehow the notes do not come out clean... :(
1972 - Kuniharu Nobe #8, 658/51, Spr, RW B&S, Tokio, JP
1979 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.40, 650/51, Ced, RW B&S, JP
1987 - Aria A558, 650/51, Ced, lam RW B&S, Nagoya, JP
2014 - Hermanos Camps Master Nº 3, 650/52, CA Ced, MG RW B&S, Banyoles, ES

Steve Langham
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Steve Langham » Fri Nov 24, 2017 10:49 am

Hi Jorge
You mention you guys are thinking of Op 31 next, just a suggestion and feel free to ignore but there are other options as well. Options that are probably a little more varied (ie, not just Sor) and that are a little more methodical in their progression.
For instance you can go here (http://www.trinitycollege.co.uk/resource/?id=6777) and download the Trinity College CG syllabus, this has music which has been carefully selected starting from grade 1 and going up all the way to grade 8. In each grade there is a group A and group B and you could choose a number of pieces from each group for a grade and work your way through the syllabus (assuming you find a non-copyrighted score for the chosen pieces).
Anyway, just a thought.

Cheers

Steve

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Jorge Oliveira
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Fri Nov 24, 2017 11:22 am

Steve Langham wrote:
Fri Nov 24, 2017 10:49 am
Hi Jorge
You mention you guys are thinking of Op 31 next, just a suggestion and feel free to ignore but there are other options as well. Options that are probably a little more varied (ie, not just Sor) and that are a little more methodical in their progression.
For instance you can go here (http://www.trinitycollege.co.uk/resource/?id=6777) and download the Trinity College CG syllabus, this has music which has been carefully selected starting from grade 1 and going up all the way to grade 8. In each grade there is a group A and group B and you could choose a number of pieces from each group for a grade and work your way through the syllabus (assuming you find a non-copyrighted score for the chosen pieces).
Anyway, just a thought.

Cheers

Steve
Hi Steve:

Thanks for your suggestion to the Sor Group :D. I've downloaded the .pdf document from Trinity College you indicated and I'll look into it in due time. As for studying material following these courses you can get them all at Amazon, just search for trinity college classic guitar books. The books themselves are not that expensive, around seven or eight British pounds. Let's see what others think about your suggestion.

Best regards,

Jorge
1972 - Kuniharu Nobe #8, 658/51, Spr, RW B&S, Tokio, JP
1979 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.40, 650/51, Ced, RW B&S, JP
1987 - Aria A558, 650/51, Ced, lam RW B&S, Nagoya, JP
2014 - Hermanos Camps Master Nº 3, 650/52, CA Ced, MG RW B&S, Banyoles, ES

Henny
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Henny » Fri Nov 24, 2017 12:04 pm

Hi Yisrael

i listened to your nr 14.
good to see that hard work pays off.
when i listened i thought you can play it well. however you can improve expression when played in a slower tempo.
some notes are not given the right note value although it is a detail , i can hear it in this particular piece quite well.
with a slower tempo , and checking with a metronome every 2-3 beats, you can improve even more with this piece which is done well.

Best regards,
Henny

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hgamboa
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by hgamboa » Sat Nov 25, 2017 11:56 pm

Sor Opus 60, no 3

I took more time than I expected to do for a good recording of nr 3. I had less time to study guitar, but what was more impressive was that recording this simple piece without any mistake revealed to be very difficult to me. I had to let the piece mature in my brain so that I could play it without errors.

I leave it for your comments, and guidance.
Opus60nr3.wma
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Hugo Gamboa
Lisboa, Portugal

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Jorge Oliveira
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Sun Nov 26, 2017 11:22 am

hgamboa wrote:
Sat Nov 25, 2017 11:56 pm
Sor Opus 60, no 3

I took more time than I expected to do for a good recording of nr 3. I had less time to study guitar, but what was more impressive was that recording this simple piece without any mistake revealed to be very difficult to me. I had to let the piece mature in my brain so that I could play it without errors.

I leave it for your comments, and guidance.

Opus60nr3.wma
Hi Hugo:

Perfect, congratulations! Good tone, good tempo, good expression. Moreover, recorded in a single take, without mistakes :D. Proceed now to the #4 which is also a quite nice little piece. But, just out of curiosity, do you play with nails or without nails? And in this #3, did you use tirando only or did you also use apoyando?

Finally, with this rendition of yours, the table of posted records becomes, now, the following:
Sor's Opus 60 recorded pieces as of 25Nov17.png
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1972 - Kuniharu Nobe #8, 658/51, Spr, RW B&S, Tokio, JP
1979 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.40, 650/51, Ced, RW B&S, JP
1987 - Aria A558, 650/51, Ced, lam RW B&S, Nagoya, JP
2014 - Hermanos Camps Master Nº 3, 650/52, CA Ced, MG RW B&S, Banyoles, ES

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David Norton
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by David Norton » Sun Nov 26, 2017 3:31 pm

I'm curious (okay, I'm curious PLUS too lazy to read back through 47 pages of posts!):

Is one of the Project Expectations that the Op. 60 pieces will all be performed from memory?

Also, it seems most people just submit audio files, versus posting videos. Again, is there some sort of formalization to this, or "that's just how it worked out"?

The tables and charts are quite impressive!
David Norton
Salt Lake City, UT

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