Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Discussions relating to the classical guitar which don't fit elsewhere.
powderedtoastman
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by powderedtoastman » Sun Nov 26, 2017 7:31 pm

David Norton wrote:
Sun Nov 26, 2017 3:31 pm
I'm curious (okay, I'm curious PLUS too lazy to read back through 47 pages of posts!):

Is one of the Project Expectations that the Op. 60 pieces will all be performed from memory?

Also, it seems most people just submit audio files, versus posting videos. Again, is there some sort of formalization to this, or "that's just how it worked out"?

The tables and charts are quite impressive!
I don't think anybody is too picky about those points, it seems like they accept contributions from whoever drops into the thread. I've posted a couple of videos to this thread here and there, and some of them were even open mic ones taken by my local guitar society rather than one that I did at home myself. And I haven't been doing them in order, just sneaking one in when I feel like it.

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Yisrael van Handel
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Yisrael van Handel » Sun Nov 26, 2017 7:58 pm

David Norton wrote:
Sun Nov 26, 2017 3:31 pm
I'm curious (okay, I'm curious PLUS too lazy to read back through 47 pages of posts!):

Is one of the Project Expectations that the Op. 60 pieces will all be performed from memory?

Also, it seems most people just submit audio files, versus posting videos. Again, is there some sort of formalization to this, or "that's just how it worked out"?

The tables and charts are quite impressive!
Jorge dutifully memorizes each piece. I read very well, and can play from the page much faster than I can play from memory. I do not have a video camera and do not intend to get one. As far as I know, there are no hard and fast rules here, other than being civil and helping one other where possible. On that count, the group is excellent.
Yisrael van Handel
Modi'in Ilit, Israel

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Stephen Kenyon
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Stephen Kenyon » Sun Nov 26, 2017 8:14 pm

Jorge Oliveira wrote:
Fri Nov 24, 2017 11:22 am
Steve Langham wrote:
Fri Nov 24, 2017 10:49 am
Hi Jorge
You mention you guys are thinking of Op 31 next, just a suggestion and feel free to ignore but there are other options as well. Options that are probably a little more varied (ie, not just Sor) and that are a little more methodical in their progression.
For instance you can go here (http://www.trinitycollege.co.uk/resource/?id=6777) and download the Trinity College CG syllabus, this has music which has been carefully selected starting from grade 1 and going up all the way to grade 8. In each grade there is a group A and group B and you could choose a number of pieces from each group for a grade and work your way through the syllabus (assuming you find a non-copyrighted score for the chosen pieces)....
Hi Steve:
Thanks for your suggestion to the Sor Group :D. I've downloaded the .pdf document from Trinity College you indicated and I'll look into it in due time. As for studying material following these courses you can get them all at Amazon, just search for trinity college classic guitar books. The books themselves are not that expensive, around seven or eight British pounds. Let's see what others think about your suggestion....
And you could get the ABRSM syllabus list and do the same thing (like I suggested when I made the same suggestion as the other Steve earlier in this long thread :lol: ) - in the view of some the AB list is better organised. Similar lists exist from other exam boards (e.g. the Canadian and Australian).
Simon Ambridge Series 40 (2005)
Trevor Semple Series 88 (1992)
Louis Panormo (1838)
Alexander Batov Baroque Guitar (2013)

Steve Langham
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Steve Langham » Sun Nov 26, 2017 10:53 pm

Ah, sorry Stephen. Didn't release in a previous post you suggested the same. I will immodestly say, great minds think alike!

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Jorge Oliveira
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Mon Nov 27, 2017 12:25 am

David Norton wrote:
Sun Nov 26, 2017 3:31 pm
I'm curious (okay, I'm curious PLUS too lazy to read back through 47 pages of posts!):

Is one of the Project Expectations that the Op. 60 pieces will all be performed from memory?

Also, it seems most people just submit audio files, versus posting videos. Again, is there some sort of formalization to this, or "that's just how it worked out"?

The tables and charts are quite impressive!
Hi David:

Thanks for posting in this thread. As Yisrael and powderedtoastman have already stated in their comments above to your post, there are no preconditions for anyone joining this group in any role: learner, teacher, commentator or simply an interested reader. Anyone is welcome to post an audio or video record of any of the 25 pieces of Sor's Opus 60, and in doing so will probably get good advice from other members of this Forum who care to comment on such renditions. Members with more advance playing ability - teachers or mentors, for instance - can post renditions of their own to exemplify how they play a particular piece. Any time a rendition is posted I add a correspondent entry in the so-called "Table of posted records". And renditions can be played by memory or by looking at the score, it is up to the author.

As for the charts, I use to say that "if you don't measure things, then it's because you are not interested in them". So I decided, since the beginning, that I would keep records of the participation in this Topic and publish them in the form of charts on a monthly basis. I believe this contributes to the cohesion of the group :).

Best regards and keep following this thread,

Jorge
1972 - Kuniharu Nobe #8, 658/51, Spr, RW B&S, Tokio, JP
1979 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.40, 650/51, Ced, RW B&S, JP
1987 - Aria A558, 650/51, Ced, lam RW B&S, Nagoya, JP
2014 - Hermanos Camps Master Nº 3, 650/52, CA Ced, MG RW B&S, Banyoles, ES

Henny
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Henny » Mon Nov 27, 2017 2:32 pm

thanks everyone for your contributions.
i am still working on nr 16..quality over quantity..it takes time for me to get it right.
keep up the charts..like you mentioned..it keeps us going.
Henny

Juan M Silva
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Juan M Silva » Mon Nov 27, 2017 11:43 pm

What a great post. I have been fantasizing about learning Sor's wonderful Op. 60 for a long time now.
I am finally starting Study #3, after a very nice weekend of accomplishment for working through study #2. I am a year 1 student, and getting my fingers to cooperate is still a bit challenging.
-Juan
1976 Yamaha G-55-1

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Jorge Oliveira
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Tue Nov 28, 2017 12:32 am

Juan M Silva wrote:
Mon Nov 27, 2017 11:43 pm
What a great post. I have been fantasizing about learning Sor's wonderful Op. 60 for a long time now.
I am finally starting Study #3, after a very nice weekend of accomplishment for working through study #2. I am a year 1 student, and getting my fingers to cooperate is still a bit challenging.
-Juan
Right, Juan, welcome aboard :). Post in this thread a rendition of Sor's Opus 60 #2 and #3 when you feel ready and we will provide you some good feedback. But you shouldn't leave behind the #1 which is a lovely piece.
1972 - Kuniharu Nobe #8, 658/51, Spr, RW B&S, Tokio, JP
1979 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.40, 650/51, Ced, RW B&S, JP
1987 - Aria A558, 650/51, Ced, lam RW B&S, Nagoya, JP
2014 - Hermanos Camps Master Nº 3, 650/52, CA Ced, MG RW B&S, Banyoles, ES

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hgamboa
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by hgamboa » Tue Nov 28, 2017 9:24 pm

Jorge Oliveira wrote:
Sun Nov 26, 2017 11:22 am
But, just out of curiosity, do you play with nails or without nails? And in this #3, did you use tirando only or did you also use apoyando?
Hello Jorge,

I only use tirando and nr 3 was played without nails.
I've been using fake nails continuously during more than one month, and nr 1 and nr 2 were played with the fake nails.
I prefer the sound playing with nails. I think that I was able to have more expression with the fake nails.

I then found out that my natural nails started to bend and decided to get back to no nails... I do not know the reason, it could be the extra force on my natural nails or the effect of the glue that generated the damage. And from the aesthetic point of view, the fake nails frequently generated some strange looks from the people I interacted with! :D
Hugo Gamboa
Lisboa, Portugal

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Jorge Oliveira
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Wed Nov 29, 2017 1:43 pm

Hi Hugo:

Lot's of people play with, and without nails, depending only on their preferences. Both are ok. But if you prefer nails, it's a pity your's aren't strong enough. I've heard, though, that there are nail varnishes that, somehow, strength the nail. Have you tried it? As of me, I got strong nails and I play with them all except for the thumb, where I use the the fleshy tip of it (an habit that comes from my youth days when I accompanied Coimbra fado with what people here calls a viola but is indeed a classic guitar, tuned one tone down). In doing so I get velvety basses :).

As for tirando or apoyando I use a mix of both but a bit more of tirando. Sor's Opus 60 #4, though, which your are now rehearsing, I play it entirely in apoyando mode. You might try it, the sound that that comes out is different, strong and interesting.

Ah, by the way, the only thing I forgot to mention concerning your last rendition, the #3, is that the record itself was sort of muffled. Perhaps you were too near the microphone... or was it that you are using the PC micro directly?
1972 - Kuniharu Nobe #8, 658/51, Spr, RW B&S, Tokio, JP
1979 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.40, 650/51, Ced, RW B&S, JP
1987 - Aria A558, 650/51, Ced, lam RW B&S, Nagoya, JP
2014 - Hermanos Camps Master Nº 3, 650/52, CA Ced, MG RW B&S, Banyoles, ES

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Jorge Oliveira
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Fri Dec 01, 2017 5:03 pm

Dear Friends:

November has come to an end and it is time to publish some statistical data concerning our participation in this thread for this month.

Delcamp Forum, Sor's Opus 60 thread - Nov_2017.png
There were four new participants this month - mainterm, Steve Langham, David Norton and Juan M Silva - whom I encourage to keep on paying a special attention to this group and provide their valuable contribution to it.

As usual, those with zero posts, posted sometime in the past but not in November. Nevertheless, their names will be kept in the graph so that we all know whom ever participated in this Topic.

The graphic that follows present the daily ramp up of posts and views for the last month.

Delcamp Forum, Sor's Opus 60 thread, posts and views - Nov_2017.png

Finally, the next graph depicts the total number of monthly posts and views since this Topic was initiated in December 2016.

Delcamp Forum, Sor's Opus 60 thread - Montlhy Posts & Views_Dec16-Nov17.png

As you can see, this Topic is still very much alive :D. I thank you all, again, for your support to this Project.

Jorge
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1972 - Kuniharu Nobe #8, 658/51, Spr, RW B&S, Tokio, JP
1979 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.40, 650/51, Ced, RW B&S, JP
1987 - Aria A558, 650/51, Ced, lam RW B&S, Nagoya, JP
2014 - Hermanos Camps Master Nº 3, 650/52, CA Ced, MG RW B&S, Banyoles, ES

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Yisrael van Handel
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Yisrael van Handel » Mon Dec 04, 2017 7:40 pm

Henny wrote:
Fri Nov 24, 2017 12:04 pm
<snip> however you can improve expression when played in a slower tempo.
some notes are not given the right note value although it is a detail , i can hear it in this particular piece quite well. with a slower tempo , and checking with a metronome every 2-3 beats, you can improve even more with this piece which is done well.
Henny
Jorge Oliveira wrote:
Thu Nov 23, 2017 2:02 pm
<snip> I listened to it a few times and indeed noticed that there was somewhere a wrong note in measure 7 (which mainterm then clearly identified :)). I also noticed a slowing in tempo in measures 12-13, as well as those "rough chord changes" towards the end. Beyond correcting the notes mainterm has already pointed out, it might be useful to look at Stephen Kenyon's video lesson on this piece on Youtube. <snip> Another thought that comes to my mind is that it might be worth, perhaps, to slow your tempo a bit until you have all these issues under control, and then, go back, slowly, to your usual speed.

Jorge
mainterm wrote:
Wed Nov 22, 2017 10:42 pm
<snip> and have noticed some differences between what you are playing and what is in the score - or perhaps the edition you are using may have typos or editorial "adjustments"?

Here's what I noticed:

I'm not hearing an "A" below the "C" in the upper voice, downbeat of m.2,
check the F# in m.7 (I'm hearing F-nat) and
check the [e-g#-e] eighth note figure in m.12 (I'm hearing g#-e-g#).
I didn't hear an A half note in the bass of m.22, downbeat and also no A quarter in the middle voice beat 2.
As for the penultimate measure, may I ask which RH fingering you are using?
Henny, Jorge, and mainterm,
I would like to thank all of you for your comments. I took them to heart and have been working on this piece ever since. The first 2 weeks, I made no progress, then all of a sudden the parts started to come together.
Thanks, mainterm, for the specific comments. As for fingering in measures 23 and 24, I use modern fingering:
1/8.G-B-E (pmi) 1/16E (a) 1/4GB (ia) 1/4F#AD# (pia) | 1/2 EGB (pia) 1/4 E (p).
Happy to have your comments on the fingering.
The need to play slower, play the right notes, play with metronome, and work on expression were all noted. Work in progress. Just wanted to let you know how much I appreciate your comments. I am taking them very seriously, so it will take a little longer. Keep up all this excellent work.
Yisrael van Handel
Modi'in Ilit, Israel

mainterm
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by mainterm » Mon Dec 04, 2017 11:52 pm

Yisrael van Handel wrote:
Mon Dec 04, 2017 7:40 pm
As for fingering in measures 23 and 24, I use modern fingering:
1/8.G-B-E (pmi) 1/16E (a) 1/4GB (ia) 1/4F#AD# (pia) | 1/2 EGB (pia) 1/4 E (p).
Try adjusting the RH pattern so that you don't have to repeat with "a" from the 1/16th E to G quarter.

Interestingly Aguago - who is a real big fan of this sort of dotted rhythms, goes out of his way at times to indicate that the 32nd note after a dotted 16th (for example) should be played with 'i'.

Try that - play the 16th with 'i' instead of 'a'.

Chariot0
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Chariot0 » Tue Dec 05, 2017 5:10 pm

Jorge Oliveira wrote:
Mon Nov 27, 2017 12:25 am
Any time a rendition is posted I add a correspondent entry in the so-called "Table of posted records".
Hi! I just got here and I'm loving this thread. I've gone about 10 pages in and the decided to go to the end and read backwards a bit to make sure this thing didn't just die. I'm glad to see that it has been going over a year. I did run across this post from a little over a week ago referring to a "Table of posted records". What is this? Where can I find it? Thank you so much.

I'm really busy right now with a couple of different projects but I look forward to being able to contribute some recordings to this thread soon.

Thanks,
Roger

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Jorge Oliveira
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Tue Dec 05, 2017 6:26 pm

Chariot0 wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 5:10 pm
Jorge Oliveira wrote:
Mon Nov 27, 2017 12:25 am
Any time a rendition is posted I add a correspondent entry in the so-called "Table of posted records".
Hi! I just got here and I'm loving this thread. I've gone about 10 pages in and the decided to go to the end and read backwards a bit to make sure this thing didn't just die. I'm glad to see that it has been going over a year. I did run across this post from a little over a week ago referring to a "Table of posted records". What is this? Where can I find it? Thank you so much.

I'm really busy right now with a couple of different projects but I look forward to being able to contribute some recordings to this thread soon.

Thanks,
Roger
Hi Roger:

Thanks, I'm glad you like this thread. It's quite long, indeed, if I were you I wouldn't venture to read it all. The idea of the Topic is for anyone willing to learn how to play all the 25 pieces of Fernando Sor's Opus 60, to do so with the help of other Forum members. Post a record of any of these pieces and you for sure will get comments on your rendition. These comments will help you to improve your playing and you may post later a second, supposedly better, rendition if you feel so, or simply go to learn the next one. The next one can be any of the 25 pieces, but I advice you to start with the #1 and follow through in sequence, as they were intended by Sor as an introductory course he wrote for his students late in his life (he also wrote a Method).

As for the "Table of posted records", any time any Forum member posts in this thread a record of a piece for the first time, I open an entry for him on an Excel table I keep on my PC, put the date of the post in the column corresponding to the piece and post the updated table. The last table can be found almost at the end of page 47 of this thread, in a post of mine dated 26-Nov-2017 (11:22h), and the previous one can found on page 46 of the thread, on a post of mine dated 12-Nov-2017 (00:09h). And so on...

By looking at the table, you can see, for instance, that my last record of the #10 was posted on 24-Apr-2014. So, if you want to hear it, you just have to navigate the thread backwards until you reach this date and search for my post. In the same post you will also find what was, then, the most updated version of the table of posted records, with my new entry of the #10. With the help of such a table, you could also look for, and hear, renditions of the #10, or any other pieces, posted by other members of this group of learners.

I hope all is clear to you now and I look forward for your first rendition of one of Sor's Opus 60 pieces. If you experience difficulties in recording your play and post it in this thread, just let me know, I may be able to help you.

Best regards,

Jorge
1972 - Kuniharu Nobe #8, 658/51, Spr, RW B&S, Tokio, JP
1979 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.40, 650/51, Ced, RW B&S, JP
1987 - Aria A558, 650/51, Ced, lam RW B&S, Nagoya, JP
2014 - Hermanos Camps Master Nº 3, 650/52, CA Ced, MG RW B&S, Banyoles, ES

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