Jose Sonata Recordings

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Luis_Br
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Re: Jose Sonata Recordings

Post by Luis_Br » Sat Dec 24, 2016 3:48 pm

I agree completely, maybe I've just written too much because I see so many comments on some others with so superficial readings and the reason seems clear to me. But I agree it is not a good thing to mention.

ben etow
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Re: Jose Sonata Recordings

Post by ben etow » Wed Jan 11, 2017 11:57 am

Lovemyguitar wrote:It seems to be a nearly three-way tie, however, as Saenz's recording of it came out in 1994, and Bream's recording, although not released until 1995, was actually recorded in late 1993.
Sorry I didn't get back earlier. I was hoping to find a more precise date on Saenz' CD, but it only mentions 1994 indeed...

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Stephen Kenyon
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Re: Jose Sonata Recordings

Post by Stephen Kenyon » Fri Jan 13, 2017 12:12 am

ben etow wrote:
Lovemyguitar wrote:It seems to be a nearly three-way tie, however, as Saenz's recording of it came out in 1994, and Bream's recording, although not released until 1995, was actually recorded in late 1993.
Sorry I didn't get back earlier. I was hoping to find a more precise date on Saenz' CD, but it only mentions 1994 indeed...
I decided to write direct to Ricardo Iznaola, and am very happy to say I got a reply, as follows:

".. my recording of the José was done during the month of December, 1989, and first released in the CD The Dream of Icarus (cat. # IGW 22874) early in 1990. We coupled this CD with another, Virtuoso Romantic Music (IGW 22875), also recorded Dec 89, and re-released them both in the 2-CD album The Icarus Collection (IGW22874-75)".

Short of any of the other early recordings having waited a very long time before release, one suspects this should settle the matter of first recording.
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Lovemyguitar
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Re: Jose Sonata Recordings

Post by Lovemyguitar » Fri Jan 13, 2017 2:40 am

Good to know, Stephen, thanks! (Not that it matters -- other than for the record, as it were. :wink: )

2handband
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Re: Jose Sonata Recordings

Post by 2handband » Fri Jan 13, 2017 3:33 am

I wasn't aware of this sonata... just listened to the bream and holy hell is it ever a great piece. Interesting to read about your involvement Stephen; I will probably be picking up a copy of that edition at some point.

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Re: Jose Sonata Recordings

Post by llebron » Tue Feb 14, 2017 9:25 pm

My favorite is Nirse Gonzalez's recording of it on his "Guitar Recital" album for Naxos.
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Jeremiah Lawson
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Re: Jose Sonata Recordings

Post by Jeremiah Lawson » Fri Feb 17, 2017 2:34 pm

the name escapes me at the moment but someone wrote a treatise on the case for a new edition of the Jose sonata that was an interesting read. I have to dash off to the day job but I thought I'd mention there's at least one dissertation out there on academic web-sitery that may be pertinent to further study of the score. It really is a fantastic sonata that's earned its reputation in the literature.

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Stephen Kenyon
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Re: Jose Sonata Recordings

Post by Stephen Kenyon » Fri Feb 17, 2017 8:36 pm

Jeremiah Lawson wrote:the name escapes me at the moment but someone wrote a treatise on the case for a new edition of the Jose sonata that was an interesting read..
That may well be the one by Ricardo Iznaola, if it was published in the EGTA (UK) Guitar Journal (of which I was editor at the time 8) )
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Jim Davidson
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Re: Jose Sonata Recordings

Post by Jim Davidson » Sun Feb 19, 2017 3:12 am

Stephen Kenyon wrote:
Jeremiah Lawson wrote:the name escapes me at the moment but someone wrote a treatise on the case for a new edition of the Jose sonata that was an interesting read..
That may well be the one by Ricardo Iznaola, if it was published in the EGTA (UK) Guitar Journal (of which I was editor at the time 8) )
I found a wonderful dissertation by a Corey Whitehead out of the University of Arizona from 2002. It features a complete analysis, a comparision of the 2nd manuscript and the 1999 Iznaola edition, offers the most detailed biography of Antonio Jose that I've seen thus far, the history of performances and editions of the piece, and finally offers his own performance edition. He refers to Iznaola's writing on heuristics regarding the two manuscripts of the Jose Sonata. Really a great read.

http://arizona.openrepository.com/arizo ... 150/289814
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Stephen Kenyon
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Re: Jose Sonata Recordings

Post by Stephen Kenyon » Sun Feb 19, 2017 10:27 am

Jim Davidson wrote:...
I found a wonderful dissertation by a Corey Whitehead out of the University of Arizona from 2002. It features a complete analysis, a comparision of the 2nd manuscript and the 1999 Iznaola edition, offers the most detailed biography of Antonio Jose that I've seen thus far, the history of performances and editions of the piece, and finally offers his own performance edition. He refers to Iznaola's writing on heuristics regarding the two manuscripts of the Jose Sonata. Really a great read.

http://arizona.openrepository.com/arizo ... 150/289814
That will indeed be an interesting read, not least the author has set himself an extremely high bar - always good to see people challenging the old guard. Unfortunately, on a brief scan over, the new edition is engraved astonishingly badly, from the point of view of decent legibility, (and one of the pages is scanned upside down! - so not even a PDF export) so I hope that is not a reflection on the quality of the substance of the arguments presented!
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Stephen Kenyon
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Re: Jose Sonata Recordings

Post by Stephen Kenyon » Sun Feb 19, 2017 12:59 pm

Jim Davidson wrote:....
I found a wonderful dissertation by a Corey Whitehead out of the University of Arizona from 2002. It features a complete analysis, a comparision of the 2nd manuscript and the 1999 Iznaola edition, offers the most detailed biography of Antonio Jose that I've seen thus far, the history of performances and editions of the piece, and finally offers his own performance edition. He refers to Iznaola's writing on heuristics regarding the two manuscripts of the Jose Sonata. Really a great read.
http://arizona.openrepository.com/arizo ... 150/289814
That took a couple of hours but I've got the gist of it. I would caution your assessment of it, because while there are many parts which are fine, as far as I can see the author has not really lived up to his stated aims, nor justified his implicit criticism of Gilardino and Iznaola (disclaimer; quick reminder of my connections to those two!)

The fine bits are the biographical parts (obviously, I'm assuming the author has fairly reported on properly conducted reading) and the mechanical side of the harmonic and thematic analysis (again, I'm assuming these are accurate because I didn't verify each and every one!) Much of the basic technical advice section aimed at the performer seems fair enough, though I would question the point of it.

I did not however see any justification for the author's (implicitly) claimed superior judgement in the matter of the understanding of the work's thematic and harmonic organisation and the way this was supposed to inform the performance edition. His assertions in that regard seemed to me to be rather condescending, notwithstanding his clear thanks for the one lesson he had with Iznaola. I was also surprised that the PhD supervisers failed to ensure that in questioning Gilardino's motives in the first publication, the author did not (apparently) contact Gilardino and ask him to account for the matters raised. I, for example, did ask why he had not found out about the Iznaola involvement, and as this was over 20 years ago I hope I can be forgiven for not remembering the response (interestingly, had that correspondence been by letter rather than email, I would probably still have access to it! - but then the rapidity and immediacy of our discussion would have been limited by the return of post to and from Italy and England...)
In the end though, that last matter seems in the scheme of things a very trivial question to raise if it is in (part) justification using this topic as the subject of a partial fulfilment of the requirements for the degree of Doctor of Musical Arts.
Unfortunately none of the web links within the PDF are still viable so we don't even get to hear the author's musical achievement, and in the only things I can find on YT he's playing flamenco.
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Jeremiah Lawson
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Re: Jose Sonata Recordings

Post by Jeremiah Lawson » Wed Feb 22, 2017 2:20 am

that's the one I read. It was an interesting read for the formal analysis part but I was underwhelmed by the case for a new edition as such. I was actually looking for an analysis of the score and not an argument for a new edition. If anything arguments for new editions can be the bane of the classical guitar scene. Show me that you understand WHY the notes are there and WHAT they mean in thematic, formal and developmental terms and then we can debate the merits or demerits of this or that edition.

It's been a few months since I read the thing but overall it seemed the core of the formal analysis was solid but I had hoped for a bit more detail on the musical development and a lot less on a case for a new edition.

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Re: Jose Sonata Recordings

Post by Lovemyguitar » Wed Feb 22, 2017 3:07 am

Stephen Kenyon wrote:... I was also surprised that the PhD supervisers failed to ensure that in questioning Gilardino's motives in the first publication, the author did not (apparently) contact Gilardino and ask him to account for the matters raised...
In the end though, that last matter seems in the scheme of things a very trivial question to raise if it is in (part) justification using this topic as the subject of a partial fulfilment of the requirements for the degree of Doctor of Musical Arts.
Unfortunately none of the web links within the PDF are still viable so we don't even get to hear the author's musical achievement, and in the only things I can find on YT he's playing flamenco.
Ouch, you are a harsh critic! Writing a PhD dissertation is mostly an exercise in perseverance: it involves trying to come up with a very specific and unique topic that nobody else has written about or at least not from a certain perspective, spending usually a few years writing upwards of a few hundred pages on that very narrow topic (the subject matter is not supposed to be expansive), not getting paid to do it, trying to please a supervisor along the way who will often be very critical of the work throughout its stages, and then having to defend it to all the members of the PhD committee, who will often point out all of its supposed flaws to the student during the oral examination/defence. A completed and accepted dissertation, even if floating around on the web, is not a published work: it is nothing more than a huge "term paper", and it is extremely difficult to publish afterwards, even if it is very good and the writer wanted to, because publishers are simply not keen to do so, without demanding vast revisions, which most recent graduates haven't the time nor inclination nor financial ability to do. The dissertation is that final huge hurdle to jump before being granted one's degree -- which gives one a title, but seldom a job -- and so perhaps you could cut this fellow some slack.

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Stephen Kenyon
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Re: Jose Sonata Recordings

Post by Stephen Kenyon » Wed Feb 22, 2017 6:23 pm

Lovemyguitar wrote: Ouch, you are a harsh critic! .
Well I'm sorry you think so. I note your post doesn't address any of my points. I was replying to Jim Davidson, who started the thread, and was asking for opinions, so I would assume is of enquiring disposition; he might want to do a higher degree at some point, and as he'd apparently not noticed any problems with the thesis, I was pointing some out. One assumes the author will never read this thread, but I was at pains to deflect much of the questioning towards his supervisors.
As asserted in my previous post, and detailed in an earlier post, I have some historical connections with Messrs Gilardino and Iznaola, two of the best minds in the guitar world, and the author clearly stated in his thesis that he thought he had superior insight in the matter of the José Sonata, and that he could improve on the editions available. Under the circumstances it seems a little strange to be asked to cut the author some slack.
Jeremiah Lawson said basically the same thing (in commendably fewer words).
We should be accurate in that the degree was actually a D.M.A not a PhD.
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Lovemyguitar
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Re: Jose Sonata Recordings

Post by Lovemyguitar » Wed Feb 22, 2017 6:50 pm

Sorry, Stephen, I meant nothing more than what I wrote. I really don't wish to argue with you about this. All the best.

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