The Aguado project

Discussions relating to the classical guitar which don't fit elsewhere.
2handband
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Re: The Aguado project

Postby 2handband » Tue Dec 27, 2016 7:15 pm

Stephen Kenyon wrote:
Dustin McKinney wrote:
RobMacKillop wrote:That E Major triad is an unusual figuration, with two major thirds. Tsk, tsk... :contrat: :lol:

Some truth in that statement, but in the Common Practice Era, partwriting allowed for a doubled major third when it appears in the bass. It's also acceptable since it functions as a leading tone down below.
Regardless, looking at that stretch is daunting. It's definitely a feat of left hand dexterity.


A source for doubled 3rd being OK if possible please? I thought it was only in a minor context. To me that would sound very iffy as is.

Funnily enough perhaps we could improve both aspects? Move the higher G sharp up to B on the 3rd string and finger the result (upwards) 3-1-4-2


That sure does make it easier to grab; nice thinking.

2handband
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Re: The Aguado project

Postby 2handband » Wed Dec 28, 2016 12:52 am

The kids spent today with their mom, so I wound up spending basically all day on this (I can get a little obsessive about my projects). Mostly right now just going through and cataloging everything so I know what is there. There is some duplication between the various sources, particularly the three methods but it should also be pointed out in cases where a piece appears in more than one place there are sometimes differences. There's also a lot of really nice music that I think gets skipped over altogether. Opuses 13 and 14 are turning out to be great; granted they were marketed as non-difficult pieces rather than studies per se, but there are some really nice pieces there that an intermediate student ought to be able to tackle and from what I can tell they are kind of an untapped resource. This is turning out to be kind of fun, and there is a ton of good music here that you never see in anthologies.

2handband
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Re: The Aguado project

Postby 2handband » Thu Dec 29, 2016 5:07 pm

Has anybody here taken a hard look at the collections of studies towards the end of the two larger methods? There are 30 in the 1825 method and 27 in the 1843. 16 of the ones in the 1843 are reprints of selections from the 1825 (albeit with some differences), making for a total of 41 studies. These are studies for people who have worked all the way through the method, so many of them involve significant technical challenges but the musical value overall is very high. Worth digging into for sure.

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RobMacKillop
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Re: The Aguado project

Postby RobMacKillop » Thu Dec 29, 2016 5:15 pm

Not me. My 19th-century study was centred on Sor, Giuliani and Carulli. I never really clicked with Aguado. That is until I found a collection of six waltzes, I forget the opus number, but I recorded three of them on video. Wonderful pieces. I should explore his music more.

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Jorge Oliveira
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Re: The Aguado project

Postby Jorge Oliveira » Thu Dec 29, 2016 5:26 pm

I ventured into some of the compositions of Aguado's Nuevo Método para Guitarra (edicion 1843). I've got a pdf of the original method but used, mostly the Sainz de la Maza edition (which, regrettably, has his own way of numbering the pieces). I succeed to play some 12 lessons and exercises, most of them simple ones, from the beginning of the book. Some of them are quite nice, for instance the Lessons 25 & 26 (Parte 2ª - Prática, Sec. 1ª - Lecciones, Capítulo I, pages 31 and 32), two waltzes that can be combined into a single one. I succeeded to play (not that well, unfortunately) the Lesson 25 and started the 26 but never reached the point of combining them into a single piece (at the time I was not aware of the metronome game :)).

Edited to insert the reference to the metronome game which, incidentally, is also explained in the firs pages of Hubert Käppel's The bible of classical guitar technique, which I just acquired.
Last edited by Jorge Oliveira on Thu Dec 29, 2016 5:41 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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2handband
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Re: The Aguado project

Postby 2handband » Thu Dec 29, 2016 5:38 pm

Jorge Oliveira wrote:I ventured into some of the compositions of Aguado's Nuevo Método para Guitarra (edicion 1843). I've got a pdf of the original method but used, mostly the Sainz de la Maza edition (which, regrettably, has his own way of numbering the pieces). I succeed to play some 12 lessons and exercises, most of them simple ones, from the beginning of the book. Some of them are quite nice, for instance the Lessons 25 & 26 (Parte 2ª - Prática, Sec. 1ª - Lecciones, Capítulo I, pages 31 and 32), two waltzes that can be combined into a single one. I succeeded to play (not that well, unfortunately) the Lesson 25 and started the 26 but never reached the point of combining them into a single piece.


You got right to the point where the music starts to get seriously interesting. There are a lot of really nice pieces in the book going forward from there. I know you're devoting your attention to Sor op 60 at the moment, but later on if you're interested in delving deeper into Aguado's method I strongly recommend getting the modern Tecla edition of the method with the text translated into English. You can also get the music contained in the 1825 method in an edition published by editions Orphee, although sadly they chose to publish only the music and omitted the text. I don't have that one and am working from facsimiles for that music, although I would pay top dollar if someone published an English translation of the method.

2handband
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Re: The Aguado project

Postby 2handband » Thu Dec 29, 2016 5:49 pm

RobMacKillop wrote:Not me. My 19th-century study was centred on Sor, Giuliani and Carulli. I never really clicked with Aguado. That is until I found a collection of six waltzes, I forget the opus number, but I recorded three of them on video. Wonderful pieces. I should explore his music more.


I just checked out your Aguado videos Rob, and I'm not sure off the top of my head what opus those are either. If I get time later I'll wade through my PDFs and see if I can find them. Great playing! Aguado had quite a few opuses of miniatures like that, and most of them are excellent but largely ignored.

It's good that you delved into Carulli... most of us know him by those beginners pieces we learned and then stopped playing once we could do better stuff but I recently read through a few of his more advanced works and they were killer. If you've studied him in depth you doubtless know his catalog much better than I do; what are some of your favorites?

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Jorge Oliveira
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Re: The Aguado project

Postby Jorge Oliveira » Thu Dec 29, 2016 5:59 pm

Thanks 2handband, I will look for this Tecla edition of the method, I didn't know it existed. And yes, I'm still very much interested in Aguado's compositions, though, as you say, for the moment I'm concentrated on studying Sor's Opus 60. However, I wonder if, once you have selected the studies you deem interesting, you might launch a Let's learn some of Aguado's interesting studies together, shall we? thread. I would certainly be most interested, as I feel the need to revisit what I already "play" to correct the timings :).
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Hermanos Camps Master, 650 mm, Cedar, 2014 (Nº 3), Spain

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RobMacKillop
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Re: The Aguado project

Postby RobMacKillop » Thu Dec 29, 2016 6:00 pm

Oh, I just meant his studies and duets. I mentioned him the context of studies by him, Sor and Giuliani. Sor is the only one of the three who I did a big in-depth study on, as I found him to be above all early 19th-century composers the one who understood chords the most. Like Bach, everything in Sor has an interesting underpinning, and his voice leading is always considered.

2handband
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Re: The Aguado project

Postby 2handband » Thu Dec 29, 2016 6:07 pm

RobMacKillop wrote:Oh, I just meant his studies and duets. I mentioned him the context of studies by him, Sor and Giuliani. Sor is the only one of the three who I did a big in-depth study on, as I found him to be above all early 19th-century composers the one who understood chords the most. Like Bach, everything in Sor has an interesting underpinning, and his voice leading is always considered.


OK, gotcha. I'm planning on learning one or two of his larger works when time permits. Right now I'm working on Sor op 15b and Carcassi op 56 and I think two major concert works at a time is more than enough, y'know?

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Yisrael van Handel
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Re: The Aguado project

Postby Yisrael van Handel » Thu Dec 29, 2016 6:11 pm

One of my teachers was very fond of Aguado studies, and assigned them almost exclusively. I find his studies very limited in terms of genre. They are all minuets, waltzes, or similar stylized dances. His harmonic development is slightly bolder and better developed than Sor's, but once you have played two or three studies, you find that the harmonic patterns begin to repeat themselves. Sor's studies provide much greater variety of genres, including chorals, trios, arias, counterpoint, all kinds of things that you will not find in Aguado studies. In every way, Sor provides greater variety. And in every way except harmonic development, Sor's studies are deeper and richer than Aguado's for the same level of difficulty. I frankly found Aguado's studies repetitive after I had played two or three. There is some repetition in Sor. It is rare. When I got to Opus 31 #18, I said to myself, this is not much different from Op 35 #22. Both are arpeggio studies in Bm, and they have similarities. But goodness, I have probably played 50 or 60 Sor studies. And Sor wrote more than a hundred. I also find the didactic points of Sor studies much more obvious than of Aguado. And Sor does not specialize in impossible reaches. Both composers require diligent working out of fingering of both hands. I would not recommend a course of study focusing primarily on Aguado for exercises.
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2handband
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Re: The Aguado project

Postby 2handband » Thu Dec 29, 2016 6:12 pm

Jorge Oliveira wrote:Thanks 2handband, I will look for this Tecla edition of the method, I didn't know it existed. And yes, I'm still very much interested in Aguado's compositions, though, as you say, for the moment I'm concentrated on studying Sor's Opus 60. However, I wonder if, once you have selected the studies you deem interesting, you might launch a Let's learn some of Aguado's interesting studies together, shall we? thread. I would certainly be most interested, as I feel the need to revisit what I already "play" to correct the timings :).


I strongly recommend the Tecla translation, which can be had through Strings by Mail and other such for around $30. And yes, once I have narrowed it down to a progressive, graded selection of studies from the reams of material in front of me (it's gonna be awhile) I will probably film it for youtube (I need better equipment though) and start a thread about it here.

2handband
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Re: The Aguado project

Postby 2handband » Thu Dec 29, 2016 6:14 pm

Yisrael van Handel wrote:One of my teachers was very fond of Aguado studies, and assigned them almost exclusively. I find his studies very limited in terms of genre. They are all minuets, waltzes, or similar stylized dances. His harmonic development is slightly bolder and better developed than Sor's, but once you have played two or three studies, you find that the harmonic patterns begin to repeat themselves. Sor's studies provide much greater variety of genres, including chorals, trios, arias, counterpoint, all kinds of things that you will not find in Aguado studies. In every way, Sor provides greater variety. And in every way except harmonic development, Sor's studies are deeper and richer than Aguado's for the same level of difficulty. I frankly found Aguado's studies repetitive after I had played two or three. There is some repetition in Sor. It is rare. When I got to Opus 31 #18, I said to myself, this is not much different from Op 35 #22. Both are arpeggio studies in Bm, and they have similarities. But goodness, I have probably played 50 or 60 Sor studies. And Sor wrote more than a hundred. I also find the didactic points of Sor studies much more obvious than of Aguado. And Sor does not specialize in impossible reaches. Both composers require diligent working out of fingering of both hands. I would not recommend a course of study focusing primarily on Aguado for exercises.


How far did you get? If you're talking about the stuff in the first third or so of either of the large methods I would agree with you, but things get much more interesting as you go along. Also there are several opuses of simpler pieces outside of the methods that get ignored altogether.

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tateharmann
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Re: The Aguado project

Postby tateharmann » Thu Dec 29, 2016 11:20 pm

Great idea...love me some Aguado ha :)

Lessons 10, 18, and 19 from the Nuevo Metodo are very pretty and quite easy.

Here's a recording I did a while back of 18: viewtopic.php?f=20&t=93260

I change up the tempo and such to make them more interesting sometimes. I've played lesson 7 from the same method on a Ukulele in a swing beat...you'd swear the composer was some Hawaiian beach bum lol.
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Robin
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Re: The Aguado project

Postby Robin » Fri Dec 30, 2016 12:28 am

2handband wrote:My daughter is diving back into CG after taking some time off to work on some rock guitar and singing goals. She is still a classical beginner, having gotten most of the way through Larry MacDonald's conservatory tutor volume 1. A large part of the impetus here is that she's picked up a fascination with the music of Dionisio Aguado, most of which is of course wildly beyond her present reach.

I did find a number of musically worthwhile and didactically relevant etudes that I've set aside for the coming months, but I'm considering going deeper. I'm thinking it might be worthwhile to go through all of Aguado's numerous etudes (and probably including the stuff in the "non difficiles" opuses as a lot of it is student-level material) and cataloging it by difficulty and didactic intent. I would then go through and toss out the stuff that just isn't very good music (yes I get that it's my opinion but I'm looking at creating a list of material that could be used as graded study material that a student might actually want to play) and generate a final graded list of studies, cross indexed by difficulty level and pedagogical value. It would be freely available at my new website which is going to go online sometime early next year as part of my effort to retire from gigging altogether and become a full-time teacher.


Just out of curiosity, do you have a system of some sort to base your grading on? I believe it gets complex once you begin to look at all the aspects of a piece and try to put it into a category.

Interesting project!

Robin
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