The Aguado project

Discussions relating to the classical guitar which don't fit elsewhere.
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Jorge Oliveira
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Re: The Aguado project

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Wed Jan 04, 2017 3:34 pm

Stephen Kenyon wrote:
Just as an experiment I copied some text (literally, Cmd C) from the PDF and pasted it into google translate;

Hace mas de doscientos setenta anos que la guitarra (antes vihuela) está reconocida como instrumento capaz de armonía

became

More than two hundred and seventy years ago the guitar (formerly vihuela) is recognized as an instrument capable of harmony

which seems to make sense (albeit, its not necessarily actually true in a historical sense!)
The Portuguese and the Castellano (commonly known as Spanish) are very similar and I can confirm that the translation made by Google Translate is correct. :)
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2handband
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Re: The Aguado project

Post by 2handband » Wed Jan 04, 2017 3:36 pm

Haha I just ran the prologue. I got:

"For more than two hundred and seventy years the guitar (formerly vihuela) is recognized as
Instrument capable of harmony (*). In all this time, there have certainly been good toilets
Which are attached to the sweetness of their voices and the good effect of the combination of their sounds,"

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Stephen Kenyon
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Re: The Aguado project

Post by Stephen Kenyon » Wed Jan 04, 2017 3:40 pm

2handband wrote:Haha I just ran the prologue. I got:

"....... In all this time, there have certainly been good toilets
Which are attached to the sweetness of their voices and the good effect of the combination of their sounds,"
That's probably a bog-standard translation then :desole:

but yes its probably going to give the sense and a bit of further digging will clarify bits like that.
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2handband
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Re: The Aguado project

Post by 2handband » Wed Jan 04, 2017 4:07 pm

Stephen Kenyon wrote:
2handband wrote:Haha I just ran the prologue. I got:

"....... In all this time, there have certainly been good toilets
Which are attached to the sweetness of their voices and the good effect of the combination of their sounds,"
That's probably a bog-standard translation then :desole:

but yes its probably going to give the sense and a bit of further digging will clarify bits like that.
It's all good; everybody needs a good toilet...

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Jorge Oliveira
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Re: The Aguado project

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Thu Jan 05, 2017 3:09 pm

2handband wrote: I strongly recommend the Tecla translation, which can be had through Strings by Mail and other such for around $30. And yes, once I have narrowed it down to a progressive, graded selection of studies from the reams of material in front of me (it's gonna be awhile) I will probably film it for youtube (I need better equipment though) and start a thread about it here.
I've checked and Amazon UK doesn't carry this book. Well, not strictly true, they have one, new, costing £ 999,11... :shock:. There are also some used ones in the site but the cost is outrageous. I can open an account on Strings by Mail, but I'm afraid the postage and tariffs to Europe will cost as much as the book itself. I'll try to see if there is a Tecla distributor or a depot somewhere in Europe.

BTW, when you do your listing of worthy Aguado compositions, you might want to have a look at Section 2 - Exercises, Chapter I, Exercise nº 3. It is a quite nice exercise with interesting LH fingering in the first four measures.
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Michael.N.
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Re: The Aguado project

Post by Michael.N. » Thu Jan 05, 2017 4:07 pm

Order it direct from Tecla.
Historicalguitars.

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Jorge Oliveira
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Re: The Aguado project

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Thu Jan 05, 2017 4:34 pm

Michael.N. wrote:Order it direct from Tecla.
Thank you for the hint, Michael, I just did that :D.
Aria A558, 655 mm, Cedar, 1987, Nagoya, Japan
Hermanos Camps Master, 650 mm, Cedar, 2014 (Nº 3), Spain

2handband
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Re: The Aguado project

Post by 2handband » Thu Jan 05, 2017 5:22 pm

You'll love that book, Jorge. You can also go to IMSLP and get a facsimile in PDF form of the 1825 Escuela de Guitarra, or you can order the Orphee edition with just the music from that book. Then you'll have both. I actually just swallowed my pride and ordered the Orphee edition of the Escuela. I wasn't going to because I was grumpy about them not including the translated text, but I'm spending a lot of time with this music right now and want something easier to read than the online facsimiles. I'm delving heavily into the Escuela in particular right now, and am finding it to be in some ways superior to the 1843 method. People tend to think of the Nuevo Methode as a continuation or improvement upon the Escuela, but in truth they are entirely different books. The big advantage the Nuevo has is the very extensive and comprehensive explanatory text, but it's missing a lot of other things that the Escuela has in spades.

One thing that occurred to me this morning, Jorge, when I was reading the latest entries in the Sor op 60 thread, was that you might find the early exercises in the Escuela directly pertinent to what you are doing right now. You are working on Sor op60 no3 which is essentially an exercise on the bass strings, and the Escuela starts that way with a large number of low note exercises intended to be played entirely with the thumb, starting with simple rhythm and graduating to very advanced. The whole point is to make the student a master of rhythm before getting into music of any complexity, and it makes a certain kind of sense.

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Re: The Aguado project

Post by 2handband » Thu Jan 05, 2017 7:04 pm

Aguado was a man after my own heart. Here is a snippet from the Escuela as processed through Google translate as per Stephen's suggestion:

" By rule of thumb and in every lesson, the learner will study each measure separately, and
When you already know the location and value of the sounds, you will join the bars with one another"

I keep telling people to master one tiny thing at a time... :mrgreen:

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Re: The Aguado project

Post by 2handband » Thu Jan 05, 2017 11:26 pm

The internet translation turned out to be mangled but understandable. The theory section that makes up the first part of the book is a good introduction to the fundamentals of music, but no more than that. Scales and sollfege are well covered, along with a good discussion of rythym and time. Curiously there is zero discussion of chords and harmony, although there is a section on modal theory!

I'm going to run the remaining text through the translator in smaller bits as I work through the musical examples that go along with it. At this point I've played through everything in the1843 nuevo methodo at least once (and earmarked the particularly juicy stuff for later), and the escuela material is next. So I'll be reporting back on this very cool but largely ignored book as I go (I may start a new thread for that). Of particular interest will be the appendix, which contains a treatise on modulation for the guitar by a different author.

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Jorge Oliveira
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Re: The Aguado project

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Fri Jan 06, 2017 10:57 pm

2handband wrote:You'll love that book, Jorge. You can also go to IMSLP and get a facsimile in PDF form of the 1825 Escuela de Guitarra, or you can order the Orphee edition with just the music from that book. Then you'll have both. I actually just swallowed my pride and ordered the Orphee edition of the Escuela. I wasn't going to because I was grumpy about them not including the translated text, but I'm spending a lot of time with this music right now and want something easier to read than the online facsimiles. I'm delving heavily into the Escuela in particular right now, and am finding it to be in some ways superior to the 1843 method. People tend to think of the Nuevo Methode as a continuation or improvement upon the Escuela, but in truth they are entirely different books. The big advantage the Nuevo has is the very extensive and comprehensive explanatory text, but it's missing a lot of other things that the Escuela has in spades...
Thank you for your comments about Aguado's Methods, 2handband, both the 1825 Escuela and the 1843 New Method. I do have this last one in pdf in my PC (in Spanish but that's OK with me, I can read it, the Portuguese and the Spanish are quite similar) and soon will have the Tecla edition as well. I also have an Edition of Aguado's Método de Guitarra which says Nueva Edicion Revisada por R. Sainz de la Maza (Union Musical Ediciones S.L.). I always thought that this edition was based in the 1843 New Method, as all pieces found in it are also in the 1843 New Method (I think I established the correspondence to most, if not all the pieces in the two books - nevertheless the 1843 edition has more material), although their numbering and sequencing are different. Until I read your texts in this thread, I was not aware that Aguado had published a first Method, the Escuela, some 20 years before. The funny thing is that in the Prologue of this book, Sainz de la Maza mentions only the 1820 (first edition) of the METODO DE AGUADO. He also refers to posterior editions of the 1820 Method where some elements of solfeggio were extricated as they were supposed to be known already by the student. I wonder then, if this de la Maza Edition, which I acquired at Guitarras de Luthier in Madrid (http://www.guitarrasdeluthier.com), like the Orphee edition, is really based in the 1825 Escuela and not in the 1843 New Method. The picture that follows is its front cover:
Método de Guitarra, ed Sainz de la Maza (capa).png
Did you know this book?
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2handband
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Re: The Aguado project

Post by 2handband » Fri Jan 06, 2017 11:37 pm

If i'm not mistaken that's one of the later editions of the 1843 Neuvo Methodo. A lot of the editions that came out after Aguado died were significantly altered, particularly in the text.

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Re: The Aguado project

Post by 2handband » Sat Jan 07, 2017 12:33 am

I've spent a good chunk of today with my nose buried in the Escuela. On more detailed study I find my original opinion very much unchanged... it's a much better beginner's book than the Neuvo Methodo. But once again, the Nuevo Methodo absolutely RULES for the intermediate to advanced player. It might actually be the best method in my collection, including the more modern ones.The big issues with the 1843 Nuevo Methodo as I see them are:

1) Complete lack of beginner's study. Aguado seems to more or less abandon the idea altogether. He introduces concepts as if talking to a beginner, but gives only a tiny handful of playing examples at that level. Contrast that with the Escuela in which fully half the book is in the first position.

2) Very little theory.

3) The transition to sight-reading in the higher positions is too abrupt.

4) The music, while generally very good to superb, is all written by one guy from one era.

However, this book could be the basis for an incredibly effective course of study. I'm drawing up a tentative plan for my daughter since she is so taken with Aguado right now, and it could work for others as well. Here's an outline:

1) Work up to the book. Some of this can be done using a great deal of what is in the earlier stages of the Escuela de Guitarra, although supplementary material would be needed. I think the Nuevo methodo is best tackled by a student who is a solid level 2 or above. I notice that lesson 10 (page 23 of the Tecla edition) is in the level 2 bridges book, although the Bridges version simplifies the rhythm by eliminating the dotted 16ths. Not cool! There's no reasons level 2 player can't handle dotted 16ths. Or if you really don't think it's level 2 material, put it in the level 3 book instead of screwing it up. Rant over.

2) Include lessons on theory and harmony with numerous practical examples. The best theory treatise I've seen specifically for guitar is a doctoral thesis by Jefferey McFadden, but it's written for college level guitar majors, NOT complete beginners. The teacher is, for the moment, on his or her own.

3) A teacher must evaluate the studies in the back of the book, and know when to insert them into the curriculum. Not all of them are advanced.

4) Between lessons 15 and 16 (page 26 in the Tecla edition) some supplementary sight-reading study needs to be added to ease the transition to playing above the first position.

5) You would want to supplement Aguado's pieces with works from other composers and eras. My plan is to use a lot of the stuff from Solo Guitar Playing (whatever you think of Noad you have to admit the man knew how to pick repertoire) and maybe some material from the Bridges books.

6) Some occasional modification would be needed to take account of modern technique... but actually it's damn little. Aguado was 95% of the way there in 1843.

That's pretty much it. In his introduction to the Tecla edition Jeffereys says:
...anyone who studies the book and successfully works his way through it will probably have received the most solid grounding in technique that any book can give him.
I agree. Throw in a little supplementary reading and some additional repertoire and you're there. I'd be hard pressed to think of any other method I could say that for.

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Jorge Oliveira
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Re: The Aguado project

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Sat Jan 07, 2017 12:41 am

Mystery solved :D! In Tecla's page, in the introduction to Aguado's New Guitar Method prepared by Brian Jeffery (1981) (http://www.tecla.com/extras/0001/0011/0011intro.htm) one can find information about this edition of Sainz de la Maza:
...
(2) The information about Aguado given here is of necessity based on my own research, since no serious research on him has yet been published. The reader should be warned that a large number of statements about his life given in encyclopedias and music histories are false, either slightly or glaringly. Editions also are unreliable. Thus, one edition called Aguado-Sinopoli: Gran Método Completo para Guitarra (Buenos Aires, Ricordi, n.d. [c. 1947?] is a mere compilation by Sinopoli based only vaguely on Aguado, with pieces by a variety of composers. Another, called Aguado: Método de Guitarra, nueva edición revisada por R, Sainz de la Maza (Madrid, Unión Musical Española, 1943; slightly revised reprint, 1977) contains nearly all music and little text and has no value to anyone interested in Aguado’s ideas on technique or pedagogy, for those ideas are nearly all omitted or seriously altered. Only one edition in Spanish, published by Ricordi in Buenos Aires under the title of Aguado: Método Completo de Guitarra (plate number BA 6231) is somewhat close to Aguado’s own 1843 edition, though with many small changes – but there is no way for the reader to know that that is the case, for the edition does not tell us so.
...
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Hermanos Camps Master, 650 mm, Cedar, 2014 (Nº 3), Spain

2handband
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Re: The Aguado project

Post by 2handband » Sat Jan 07, 2017 5:06 pm

Jorge Oliveira wrote:Mystery solved :D! In Tecla's page, in the introduction to Aguado's New Guitar Method prepared by Brian Jeffery (1981) (http://www.tecla.com/extras/0001/0011/0011intro.htm) one can find information about this edition of Sainz de la Maza:
...
(2) The information about Aguado given here is of necessity based on my own research, since no serious research on him has yet been published. The reader should be warned that a large number of statements about his life given in encyclopedias and music histories are false, either slightly or glaringly. Editions also are unreliable. Thus, one edition called Aguado-Sinopoli: Gran Método Completo para Guitarra (Buenos Aires, Ricordi, n.d. [c. 1947?] is a mere compilation by Sinopoli based only vaguely on Aguado, with pieces by a variety of composers. Another, called Aguado: Método de Guitarra, nueva edición revisada por R, Sainz de la Maza (Madrid, Unión Musical Española, 1943; slightly revised reprint, 1977) contains nearly all music and little text and has no value to anyone interested in Aguado’s ideas on technique or pedagogy, for those ideas are nearly all omitted or seriously altered. Only one edition in Spanish, published by Ricordi in Buenos Aires under the title of Aguado: Método Completo de Guitarra (plate number BA 6231) is somewhat close to Aguado’s own 1843 edition, though with many small changes – but there is no way for the reader to know that that is the case, for the edition does not tell us so.
...
You beat me to it... I knew Jeffery talked a bit about that stuff in the intro to his edition but hadn't gotten around to checking yet.

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