A little test

Discussions relating to the classical guitar which don't fit elsewhere.
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Jstanley01
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Re: A little test

Post by Jstanley01 » Wed Mar 15, 2017 4:12 am

IMHCO advanced players need instruction from a teacher qualified to instruct someone at their level, perhaps more so than beginners. Clearly, the player in question -- who I would hope reads this thread -- has a certain mastery of the instrument. But if he settles for this level of play as the peak of his potential musical powers, I think he will be selling himself short.

Given the role of ego in making music, kudos from the musically illiterate represent a clear and present danger, capable of deceiving us into thinking that we have progressed further than we actually have. "Coming out" as a professional on an international stage like Youtube is a strategic career decision, and feedback from disinterested master players and pedagogues should be considered a must before doing so.

I look forward to seeing this player become the consumate professional that he unquestionably has the potential to be.
Attitude is more important than the past, than education, than money, than circumstances, than what people do or say. It is more important than appearance, giftedness, or skill. -W.C. Fields

Pat Dodson
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Re: A little test

Post by Pat Dodson » Wed Mar 15, 2017 9:32 am

GSI's posting of the video and the thread here have not perhaps been their and our finest moments. We have had a pretty full, interesting and at times uncomfortable discussion here and I wonder if perhaps we have reached the point where the important issues have now been sufficiently argued and where further exploration might add little but risk making a difficult situation a little worse. Perhaps time to draw a line?

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lucy
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Re: A little test

Post by lucy » Wed Mar 15, 2017 9:54 am

Well, I also have felt uncomfortable about the way this thread has developed. However, (it may not be my place to say this), but the OP has clearly stated the intention was to provoke a discussion about the way different people hear the same thing, not to bash the player in question, or otherwise.

I for one, think this is a really interesting question. So, can people please stop continuing to bash this player and address the question at hand. Otherwise, we may well find the thread disappears! I think that would be a shame.

Perhaps there isn't an answer, it's sufficient to say people can hear the same performance very differently. However, it is an interesting question and I would certainly appreciate a discussion. As I said, I have experienced extremely disparate reactions myself.
“Do what you can, with what you have, where you are”. Theodore Roosevelt

Pat Dodson
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Re: A little test

Post by Pat Dodson » Wed Mar 15, 2017 10:39 am

lucy wrote:Well, I also have felt uncomfortable about the way this thread has developed. However, (it may not be my place to say this), but the OP has clearly stated the intention was to provoke a discussion about the way different people hear the same thing, not to bash the player in question, or otherwise.

I for one, think this is a really interesting question. So, can people please stop continuing to bash this player and address the question at hand. Otherwise, we may well find the thread disappears! I think that would be a shame.

Perhaps there isn't an answer, it's sufficient to say people can hear the same performance very differently. However, it is an interesting question and I would certainly appreciate a discussion. As I said, I have experienced extremely disparate reactions myself.
Fair enough Lucy. Yours (I'm not sure it was Mark's) is indeed a really interesting question. I hope folk can discuss it dispassionately, though, within this thread rather than another, that might be difficult without reference to the original performance that began this thread. Fingers crossed.

Recently my wife's church was approached by two classical guitarists who offered to play a recital without charge in order to raise funds for church repairs. They played a popular programme of pieces from Baroque through to arrangements of modern much loved tunes. They were nervous and owned up to that and the audience of 50 or so, who were very appreciative, readily accepted their occasional mistakes and applauded them warmly. Several spoke to me later to say how much they'd enjoyed the concert. So did I though I was aware of some technical issues in their playing . But for me these did not spoil the overall quality of their musical performance. However one member of the audience, a keyboard player with a doctorate in music, left at the interval and it later became clear that for him the popular nature of their programme and the technical issues detracted significantly from his enjoyment.

Different ears, different knowledge, different focus, different tastes. Vive la difference!

PeteJ
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Re: A little test

Post by PeteJ » Wed Mar 15, 2017 11:59 am

Yes, vive la difference. But let's face it, the performance that was originally posted is almost unlistenable for the lack of any structure or logic in the playing, while the second is superb. This has nothing to do with tone. I'm happy to be critical because I've spent years trying to understand how to turn a technical challenge into a piece of music with only partial success. These two performances are on different planets for me.

Whether we should criticise like this on a guitar forum I'm not sure but there must be something to be learned by comparing these performances.

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rojarosguitar
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Re: A little test

Post by rojarosguitar » Wed Mar 15, 2017 12:41 pm

PeteJ wrote:.... let's face it, the performance that was originally posted is almost unlistenable for the lack of any structure or logic in the playing, while the second is superb. This has nothing to do with tone. ...
Just for the sake of argument and abstracting from the actual videos that are compared, I doubt that there will be a universal agreement on the question that there is an absolute scale of judgment from unstructured to structured, from illogical to logical, which is accepted by every one end single player or listener. And even if there was such a scale, the enjoyment of music or the lack of the same is probably not so strongly related to such judgements, apart form a few exceptions...
Music is a big continent with different landscapes and corners. Some of them I do visit frequently, some from time to time and some I know from hearsay only ...

italian_job
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Re: A little test

Post by italian_job » Wed Mar 15, 2017 3:03 pm

he's great, his guitar even better than him, but the musical experience is poor and very dry.
I can't seem to enjoy any part of that.

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Denian Arcoleo
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Re: A little test

Post by Denian Arcoleo » Wed Mar 15, 2017 3:05 pm

:lol:

Lawler
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Re: A little test

Post by Lawler » Wed Mar 15, 2017 3:08 pm

Sometimes threads are like movies... drama... misunderstandings hurtling characters into tangent spirals... etc.. Alternate endings are always interesting. Here's one of of several I've thought of in relation to this thread: the GSI vid editor gasps and realizes that they uploaded the first warmup take instead of the 2nd take, which was actually the keeper. The vid is replaced. It's quite a fine rendition and each critic reflects on the deeper meanings of the change.

For anyone without a humor sensor, this is a joke. And a bad one! :P

Joe de V
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Re: A little test

Post by Joe de V » Wed Mar 15, 2017 3:28 pm

Mr. Mark Clifton-Gautier: In view of your expert review and as a self identified CG teacher it would be appreciated by a few of us to have the privilege to hear your own playing of this piece so we can learn the "proper" interpretation of it. Thank you,
Last edited by Joe de V on Wed Mar 15, 2017 7:10 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Pat Dodson
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Re: A little test

Post by Pat Dodson » Wed Mar 15, 2017 3:32 pm

Uh-oh! :?

tyke
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Re: A little test

Post by tyke » Wed Mar 15, 2017 3:49 pm

Definite cufflink sighting at 1:16 8)

markworthi
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Re: A little test

Post by markworthi » Wed Mar 15, 2017 4:24 pm

Dear forum members,

I'm glad this topic has come up, as I frequently see videos of classical guitar performances about which I'd like to get your critical opinions; but I am never sure about whether or not it is fair game to do so, knowing very well the propensity of these threads to turn into criticism of the performer him/herself. And, regarding the latter, while I don't believe there's necessarily anything wrong with assessing a performer who has posted their work, I worry about initiating a topic-- from the safety of my own anonymity-- that ends up eviscerating someone, rather than providing a well-considered assessment. It never fails to amaze me how easily people ladle out really harsh judgment of the very best guitarists in the world. Almost no performer's video at that site escapes some devastating commentary, and it's usually delivered in an off-handed manner, 30 seconds in composition, in ridiculous contrast to the 20 or 30 years it has taken the performer to master the guitar. Luckily, this conversation has not degenerated to that level (nor was it Mark's intention to go there). We're a more civilized group, apparently. ;)

Well, one thing has become clear: in the context of a high-end guitar shop, with possibly unfavorable recording conditions and an unfamiliar guitar, Mr. Fletcher's performance of Bach was not ideal. Mark, I think the best advice you can give a student looking for guitar videos by which to measure professional standards is to watch some of the Masterclass videos by Denis Azabagic and others. Bach figures prominently in these classes, and your student can safely make inferences about what should be considered proper performance timing, how much liberty one can take, et cetera.

All the best,

Mark

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Denian Arcoleo
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Re: A little test

Post by Denian Arcoleo » Wed Mar 15, 2017 5:14 pm

markworthi wrote:-- that ends up eviscerating someone, rather than providing a well-considered assessment.
I have to say that pointing out the defects in someones tone and timing isn't quite the same as disemboweling them with a sword. Hyperbole.

markworthi
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Re: A little test

Post by markworthi » Wed Mar 15, 2017 6:11 pm

Denian Arcoleo wrote:
markworthi wrote:-- that ends up eviscerating someone, rather than providing a well-considered assessment.
I have to say that pointing out the defects in someones tone and timing isn't quite the same as disemboweling them with a sword. Hyperbole.
No, I agree with you, Denian-- it's not. Really, none of the comments here in this thread have been eviscerating.

I'm referring to the general tendency nowadays in other forums for this to happen. Because of the ease with which some people on the video site fire off general nastiness, my own wariness of starting a topic that invites criticism has not been unfounded, in my view. This does not amount to taking a stance against criticism, however. Simply, a reminder to myself to be careful to define the contours of discussion.
Last edited by markworthi on Wed Mar 15, 2017 6:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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