A little test

Discussions relating to the classical guitar which don't fit elsewhere.
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Roaster42
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Re: A little test

Postby Roaster42 » Wed Mar 15, 2017 1:00 am

Could it be the suit coat?
Coffee Roasting is like classical guitar, part technique, part art.
Without both the end result works, but never reaches what it could be.

Salvador
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Re: A little test

Postby Salvador » Wed Mar 15, 2017 2:14 am

David_Norton wrote:
Salvador wrote: i understand how hard it is to record with camera. There's a member here who said it's dishonorable for fingerstyle guitarist that pre-record their audio. He clearly doesn't understand how hard it is to record.

It's easy to criticize you know. That's the reason what i don't like about the community.

My advice is try do it yourself. Record at home, preferably difficult piece. Don't play an easy piece. It should be difficult. Allegro Solemne for example, record it live with camera in front of you. You will be surprised how many takes it would take before you can get it right.


I'm the one who posted that comment, and I stand by it. And yes I know quite well how hard it is to record, having made a CD (with quite a number of edits) and also about 2 dozen unedited/live YT videos. I'd have preferred to release a direct-to-disc CD, no edits, but that didn't happen and it got to the point that I had to accept that edited versions of the pieces were a necessity. Four of my five solo tracks on that disc were not edited, I either got it right or I did not. Again, I accepted that editing was necessary for one of the movements so that the entire suite could be recorded and released, rather than just the "four easier" movements.

As for my videos, two comments: first, each one has multiple flaws in it. There's not a 100% clean take on any of them. I consider this shameful for a man who has played CG for as long as I have. Second, because of this inability to deliver a flawless live recording, I have not posted a video in quite a while. Nor have I done a ticketed admission recital, either, for the same reason. No intents to change either of those.

Lastly, I used to play La Catedral many years ago (funny how in the whole CG repertoire, there's only one piece bearing the title "Allegro Solemne"). It's far beyond my abilities now. So zero chance of me accepting your challenge. :lol:


Yes sir i remember hehe. It's no problem with me i understand your comment. I also prefer to record live and with little edit and reverb as possible. Indeed classical guitar is hard to play. Same with me i cannot play Allegro Solemne anymore haha.

Nick Clow
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Re: A little test

Postby Nick Clow » Wed Mar 15, 2017 2:53 am

This is definitely the most (indeed only) profoundly insulting and disgraceful post I have ever seen on this forum. You have completely twisted and misrepresented the opinions comments and intentions of I think everybody else who has posted to this thread and certainly your statement has nothing whatsoever to do with my views. I am outraged and disgusted that you should make a comment of this kind. Once again honest replies to a polite and simple question have been treated with utter contempt for whatever reasons I cannot imagine and will not bother to consider.
Honestly! Described me and my fellow UK members (excluding Adrian) as bigots! Because we notice that a performance we were asked to consider has something lacking. Because we exercise the common action of stating, simply, supported by reason, musical experience and knowledge, politely and without denigrating the player, that there is a problem.
Shameful.
Fine you can all live in your pitiful state of whatever.


Stephen, I am sorry you feel like that. You may have been reading my comments in a broader way than intended. My comments were in response to Denian. The contention that the UK has a monopoly on free speech is offensive. I also have a pet hate of someone doing or saying something offensive and then defending themselves by playing the free speech card, as if that makes it ok.

Anyway it's up to you how you interpret things and I certainly don't apologise. If you do perceive my comments as criticism, it is somewhat ironic that it hurts.

Despite Mark's and your contentions that people don't read things properly (something that does neither of you any favours), I have quite carefully read what you (both) have written and I do have some understanding of your (pl) points of view. However, I genuinely think this thread is bad form, and I ask you to try and understand mine.

Let's say this is a rock-climbing internet forum.

An elite, professional rock-climber posts a Youtube video of another professional climber and makes highly critical and, what many perceive as, spiteful comments about the other climber's technique. He does not know the other climber and the comments are entirely unsolicited.

Some members of the forum are genuinely puzzled that a climber would victimise another climber in this way. They are really uncomfortable and concerned for the poor sod who is being picked on.

One or two people chip in to register their discomfort. They are told (with more than a whiff of cultural/colonial superiority) that they can't read and they are ignoring the questions asked. They don't understand. It's all about sharing knowledge and experience, apparently. And it's ok to run someone down if they are a professional.

The educational piece is that, whilst the original elite and professional rock-climber may be a good climber, he is not a particularly nice bloke.

In my experience, most elite participants in pastimes, sports and arts are welcoming, inclusive and respectful of their peers. Love of their activity, karma. As several people have said, it is surprising that in music, of all fields, it is not the case here.
Last edited by Nick Clow on Wed Mar 15, 2017 7:39 am, edited 7 times in total.
formerly Edward Frillypants

Lawler
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Re: A little test

Postby Lawler » Wed Mar 15, 2017 3:19 am

Roaster42 wrote:Could it be the suit coat?
I'm glad you brought that up. Nice suit but the lint... Horrible! And that shirt sleeve cuff protruding so out of control? Sacrilege! Lol

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Roaster42
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Re: A little test

Postby Roaster42 » Wed Mar 15, 2017 3:47 am

Lawler wrote:
Roaster42 wrote:Could it be the suit coat?
I'm glad you brought that up. Nice suit but the lint... Horrible! And that shirt sleeve cuff protruding so out of control? Sacrilege! Lol


I kept looking for cufflinks, but never saw any.

On a serious note (LIke a C#) I think his form is quite good and the technique is accurate.
I just found his expression and feel to be flat, almost cold.

Other than that its a completely acceptable performance.
The section at around 1:08 where he is rapidly crossing between positions to phrase the chord and the melody line is nice.
The run at the end of the piece has a happy tone to it that would have been nice to see through the rest of the work.
Coffee Roasting is like classical guitar, part technique, part art.
Without both the end result works, but never reaches what it could be.

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Jstanley01
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Re: A little test

Postby Jstanley01 » Wed Mar 15, 2017 4:12 am

IMHCO advanced players need instruction from a teacher qualified to instruct someone at their level, perhaps more so than beginners. Clearly, the player in question -- who I would hope reads this thread -- has a certain mastery of the instrument. But if he settles for this level of play as the peak of his potential musical powers, I think he will be selling himself short.

Given the role of ego in making music, kudos from the musically illiterate represent a clear and present danger, capable of deceiving us into thinking that we have progressed further than we actually have. "Coming out" as a professional on an international stage like Youtube is a strategic career decision, and feedback from disinterested master players and pedagogues should be considered a must before doing so.

I look forward to seeing this player become the consumate professional that he unquestionably has the potential to be.
Attitude is more important than the past, than education, than money, than circumstances, than what people do or say. It is more important than appearance, giftedness, or skill. -W.C. Fields

Pat Dodson
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Re: A little test

Postby Pat Dodson » Wed Mar 15, 2017 9:32 am

GSI's posting of the video and the thread here have not perhaps been their and our finest moments. We have had a pretty full, interesting and at times uncomfortable discussion here and I wonder if perhaps we have reached the point where the important issues have now been sufficiently argued and where further exploration might add little but risk making a difficult situation a little worse. Perhaps time to draw a line?

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lucy
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Re: A little test

Postby lucy » Wed Mar 15, 2017 9:54 am

Well, I also have felt uncomfortable about the way this thread has developed. However, (it may not be my place to say this), but the OP has clearly stated the intention was to provoke a discussion about the way different people hear the same thing, not to bash the player in question, or otherwise.

I for one, think this is a really interesting question. So, can people please stop continuing to bash this player and address the question at hand. Otherwise, we may well find the thread disappears! I think that would be a shame.

Perhaps there isn't an answer, it's sufficient to say people can hear the same performance very differently. However, it is an interesting question and I would certainly appreciate a discussion. As I said, I have experienced extremely disparate reactions myself.
"Those who bring sunshine into the lives of others cannot keep it from themselves". James M. Barrie

Pat Dodson
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Re: A little test

Postby Pat Dodson » Wed Mar 15, 2017 10:39 am

lucy wrote:Well, I also have felt uncomfortable about the way this thread has developed. However, (it may not be my place to say this), but the OP has clearly stated the intention was to provoke a discussion about the way different people hear the same thing, not to bash the player in question, or otherwise.

I for one, think this is a really interesting question. So, can people please stop continuing to bash this player and address the question at hand. Otherwise, we may well find the thread disappears! I think that would be a shame.

Perhaps there isn't an answer, it's sufficient to say people can hear the same performance very differently. However, it is an interesting question and I would certainly appreciate a discussion. As I said, I have experienced extremely disparate reactions myself.


Fair enough Lucy. Yours (I'm not sure it was Mark's) is indeed a really interesting question. I hope folk can discuss it dispassionately, though, within this thread rather than another, that might be difficult without reference to the original performance that began this thread. Fingers crossed.

Recently my wife's church was approached by two classical guitarists who offered to play a recital without charge in order to raise funds for church repairs. They played a popular programme of pieces from Baroque through to arrangements of modern much loved tunes. They were nervous and owned up to that and the audience of 50 or so, who were very appreciative, readily accepted their occasional mistakes and applauded them warmly. Several spoke to me later to say how much they'd enjoyed the concert. So did I though I was aware of some technical issues in their playing . But for me these did not spoil the overall quality of their musical performance. However one member of the audience, a keyboard player with a doctorate in music, left at the interval and it later became clear that for him the popular nature of their programme and the technical issues detracted significantly from his enjoyment.

Different ears, different knowledge, different focus, different tastes. Vive la difference!

PeteJ
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Re: A little test

Postby PeteJ » Wed Mar 15, 2017 11:59 am

Yes, vive la difference. But let's face it, the performance that was originally posted is almost unlistenable for the lack of any structure or logic in the playing, while the second is superb. This has nothing to do with tone. I'm happy to be critical because I've spent years trying to understand how to turn a technical challenge into a piece of music with only partial success. These two performances are on different planets for me.

Whether we should criticise like this on a guitar forum I'm not sure but there must be something to be learned by comparing these performances.

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rojarosguitar
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Re: A little test

Postby rojarosguitar » Wed Mar 15, 2017 12:41 pm

PeteJ wrote:.... let's face it, the performance that was originally posted is almost unlistenable for the lack of any structure or logic in the playing, while the second is superb. This has nothing to do with tone. ...


Just for the sake of argument and abstracting from the actual videos that are compared, I doubt that there will be a universal agreement on the question that there is an absolute scale of judgment from unstructured to structured, from illogical to logical, which is accepted by every one end single player or listener. And even if there was such a scale, the enjoyment of music or the lack of the same is probably not so strongly related to such judgements, apart form a few exceptions...
Music is a big continent with different landscapes and corners. Some of them I do visit frequently, some from time to time and some I know from hearsay only ...

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Denian Arcoleo
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Re: A little test

Postby Denian Arcoleo » Wed Mar 15, 2017 2:16 pm

Nick Clow wrote: The contention that the UK has a monopoly on free speech is offensive. I also have a pet hate of someone doing or saying something offensive and then defending themselves by playing the free speech card, as if that makes it ok.


It was intended as a joke. Do you think I seriously believe that free speech has its last bolthole in the UK? My pet hate is taking offense at every opportunity...there's a lot of it about. A sense of humour is required.

Gary Macleod
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Re: A little test

Postby Gary Macleod » Wed Mar 15, 2017 2:51 pm

Denian Arcoleo wrote:
Nick Clow wrote: The contention that the UK has a monopoly on free speech is offensive. I also have a pet hate of someone doing or saying something offensive and then defending themselves by playing the free speech card, as if that makes it ok.


It was intended as a joke. Do you think I seriously believe that free speech has its last bolthole in the UK? My pet hate is taking offense at every opportunity...there's a lot of it about. A sense of humour is required.


I take offence to that

Pat Dodson
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Re: A little test

Postby Pat Dodson » Wed Mar 15, 2017 2:57 pm

Gary Macleod wrote:
Denian Arcoleo wrote:
Nick Clow wrote: The contention that the UK has a monopoly on free speech is offensive. I also have a pet hate of someone doing or saying something offensive and then defending themselves by playing the free speech card, as if that makes it ok.


It was intended as a joke. Do you think I seriously believe that free speech has its last bolthole in the UK? My pet hate is taking offense at every opportunity...there's a lot of it about. A sense of humour is required.


I take offence to that

:lol:

italian_job
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Re: A little test

Postby italian_job » Wed Mar 15, 2017 3:03 pm

he's great, his guitar even better than him, but the musical experience is poor and very dry.
I can't seem to enjoy any part of that.


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