Old world sound

Discussions relating to the classical guitar which don't fit elsewhere.
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Sérgio Lopes
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Old world sound

Post by Sérgio Lopes » Fri Mar 17, 2017 8:33 pm

I often see guitars being described as having a "very old world sound". Can anyone explain to me what that really means and/or point me to a recording video where that type of sound is markedly present?

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David_Norton
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Re: Old world sound

Post by David_Norton » Fri Mar 17, 2017 8:42 pm

David Norton
Salt Lake City, UT

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petermc61
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Re: Old world sound

Post by petermc61 » Fri Mar 17, 2017 9:16 pm

Search 'GSI Marc Teicholz 1936 Fleta' and have a listen. The very old world sound is, to me, the sound of the best vintage guitars. With maturity, they have a glow, a golden honeyed richness to the mids and trebles you just don't get on younger instruments, and certainly not with anything with modern construction techniques.

Pat Dodson
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Re: Old world sound

Post by Pat Dodson » Fri Mar 17, 2017 9:37 pm

To save folk the search, here is Peter's recommended video.


Youtube

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Michael.N.
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Re: Old world sound

Post by Michael.N. » Tue Mar 21, 2017 7:05 am

I tend to think of it as being guitars strung with gut and silk. Rob Mackillop and CarlesTrepat are modern examples. You can search Youtube for many examples of their sound. It's a warmer sound with less ring to the bass. Nylon strings did not come into use until the very late 1940's, so virtually all the well known guitar composers played on gut. There's an obvious difference between the guitar that Sor played and the much larger Torres that Tarrega played. Either or perhaps both could be seen as an old world sound. For other people it's the Ramirez sound from the late 60's and the introduction of cedar, what some people also think is the typical Spanish sound.
Historicalguitars.

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zupfgeiger
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Re: Old world sound

Post by zupfgeiger » Tue Mar 21, 2017 9:27 am

As Peter and Michael said, old world sound, that's for me the silky, honey like sweetness of a Santos, a Manuel Ramirez and - of course - a Torres. No modern guitar construction is able to produce this level of refinement. I would not include Segovia's later Ramirez/cedar years into this category. Cedar can be sweet, but generally has a different soud character without old world connotation. Ask Jose Romanillos.
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Tobias Braun, Santos copy, spruce/yew, 2017
Andrea Tacchi, Enrique Garcia model, Spruce/BRAZ, 2016
Giovanni Tacchi, Daniel Friederich copy, cedar/EIR, 2017
Alain Raifort, cedar/EIR, 2004

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Michael.N.
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Re: Old world sound

Post by Michael.N. » Tue Mar 21, 2017 9:58 am

It depends on your perspective. Not many guitarists would think of a Lacote or even a Panormo as being 'old world'. They tend to put the limit at one of the larger Torres guitars. That's because their focus is on that type of guitar and not on the smaller romantic models. In actual fact Lacote and Panormo's are about as 'old world' as one can get on a 6 string guitar.
Historicalguitars.

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zupfgeiger
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Re: Old world sound

Post by zupfgeiger » Tue Mar 21, 2017 10:12 am

Yes of course, I did not think of the "even older world". Unfortunately I have not the slightest experience with pre-Torres guitars. Probably I should grab the next chance to try one out.
The secret of getting ahead is getting started (Mark Twain)

Tobias Braun, Santos copy, spruce/yew, 2017
Andrea Tacchi, Enrique Garcia model, Spruce/BRAZ, 2016
Giovanni Tacchi, Daniel Friederich copy, cedar/EIR, 2017
Alain Raifort, cedar/EIR, 2004

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Michael.N.
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Re: Old world sound

Post by Michael.N. » Tue Mar 21, 2017 11:47 am

Even Torres made pre Torres guitars, if you know what I mean. Torres guitars went from 'romantic guitar sounding' right through to the type that most people think as the larger fan braced model i.e. the modern classical guitar, the one associated with Tarrega. It covers a lot of ground. There's simply no way that you could possibly confuse the sound of his smallest guitar with that of his largest, in terms of sound they are virtually polar opposites. Yet both models could be considered to be an 'old world sound'.
Historicalguitars.

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zupfgeiger
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Re: Old world sound

Post by zupfgeiger » Tue Mar 21, 2017 1:21 pm

Don't know exactly what you mean. Maybe I got you wrong, but I think also smaller guitars can stand for the Spanish old world category, as Maestro Tarrega himself played FE 17 for a long time, which was defintely a small guitar compared to Torres' larger instruments. But nonetheless the sound of FE 17 was definitely emblematic for the Spanish guitar of that period. But I am not a Torres expert, I just like the sound of his guitars. My teacher, Wulfin Lieske in Cologne, plays La Leona. :D
The secret of getting ahead is getting started (Mark Twain)

Tobias Braun, Santos copy, spruce/yew, 2017
Andrea Tacchi, Enrique Garcia model, Spruce/BRAZ, 2016
Giovanni Tacchi, Daniel Friederich copy, cedar/EIR, 2017
Alain Raifort, cedar/EIR, 2004

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Michael.N.
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Re: Old world sound

Post by Michael.N. » Tue Mar 21, 2017 2:11 pm

FE 07, SE 02, SE 77, SE 92, SE 103, SE 117, are all very small guitars, consequently their sound is much closer to a romantic guitar. Actually I think a Panormo sounds a touch closer to a modern classical than any of the Torres previously mentioned. The Panormo is considered a romantic guitar, Torres not. That can only be because of the years that they were making. The small Torres are romantic guitars in spirit though.
FE 17 is jumbo in comparison. It's body length is 466 mm, compared to 425 mm for the Torres previously listed. A 4 cm difference is huge.
Historicalguitars.

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zupfgeiger
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Re: Old world sound

Post by zupfgeiger » Tue Mar 21, 2017 3:49 pm

looks tiny nonetheless. (It's a FE 17 replica built by Michael Thames)
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The secret of getting ahead is getting started (Mark Twain)

Tobias Braun, Santos copy, spruce/yew, 2017
Andrea Tacchi, Enrique Garcia model, Spruce/BRAZ, 2016
Giovanni Tacchi, Daniel Friederich copy, cedar/EIR, 2017
Alain Raifort, cedar/EIR, 2004

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Michael.N.
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Re: Old world sound

Post by Michael.N. » Tue Mar 21, 2017 5:05 pm

It's small in respect of the largest Torres, 466 mm compared to 485 mm body length. I do a Torres based on FE 28 which is 470 mm, so very similar to FE 17. I still view it as being very much in the realm of a modern classical guitar, both in appearance and sound. You would need to see one of the very small Torres next to FE 17 or FE 28 to appreciate just how much smaller they are. Consequently the sound is markedly different, mostly heard in the bass which simply doesn't have the depth, it's punchy and a little woody sounding. Very well balanced from bass to treble though.
Historicalguitars.

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tubeman
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Re: Old world sound

Post by tubeman » Tue Mar 21, 2017 6:15 pm

They sound like they are made out of wood instead of plastic, and offer a wider range of tones than a lot of modern guitars.
Greg Byers 2016 cedar/Ind
Randy Angella 2009 sp/Br

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martinardo
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Re: Old world sound

Post by martinardo » Tue Mar 21, 2017 10:44 pm

The instruments played by Raphaella Smits; in this case I'm thinking of the Mirecourt 8-string guitar from the early 1820's

gives, for me, a very old world sound. Very "woody", limited sustain, evenness across the strings. Surprising volume,

tone and "presence" from such a small guitar.
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