Predjudice and tunnel vision in music

Discussions relating to the classical guitar which don't fit elsewhere.
ddray
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Re: Predjudice and tunnel vision in music

Post by ddray » Wed Jun 07, 2017 8:35 pm

Stephen Kenyon wrote:
Wed Jun 07, 2017 8:17 pm
ddray wrote:
Wed Jun 07, 2017 8:09 pm
I'm pretty new to the guitar and the guitar world, but the sort of tunnel vision I notice among guitarists (taking this forum as being typical, although I'm not sure if it is) consists of getting hung up on the sorts of things that you don't see among pianists for example (which is my frame of reference). Things like, what luthier made that? Rosewood or mahogany, spruce or cedar? What strings do you use? Oh no, not D'Addarios!!! Are my nails long enough?....
You are quite possibly right, though in our defence we have quite a lot more variables in terms of gadgets and aspects to choose. For a pianist its more like, Steinway or what? - unless like some you get into details to do with regulating the hammers or whatever it is.
Organists are another bunch - get them talking about pipes and bellows and you're well away!
Well, true. With a pianist it's pretty much understood that you're most likely not going to have a Steinway concert piano at home, unless you've made it and are wealthy. I don't know what sorts of discussions violinists, violists and cellists have. Maybe similar, maybe it's just a different world for me.

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Stephen Kenyon
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Re: Predjudice and tunnel vision in music

Post by Stephen Kenyon » Wed Jun 07, 2017 8:46 pm

ddray wrote:
Wed Jun 07, 2017 8:35 pm
... With a pianist it's pretty much understood that you're most likely not going to have a Steinway concert piano at home, unless you've made it and are wealthy. I don't know what sorts of discussions violinists, violists and cellists have. Maybe similar, maybe it's just a different world for me.
Welcome to our funny world anyhow :D ... in my experience all the different classes of instruments have their own peculiar obsessions, and I doubt we are all the much worse than many others.
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ddray
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Re: Predjudice and tunnel vision in music

Post by ddray » Wed Jun 07, 2017 9:33 pm

Stephen Kenyon wrote:
Wed Jun 07, 2017 8:46 pm
ddray wrote:
Wed Jun 07, 2017 8:35 pm
... With a pianist it's pretty much understood that you're most likely not going to have a Steinway concert piano at home, unless you've made it and are wealthy. I don't know what sorts of discussions violinists, violists and cellists have. Maybe similar, maybe it's just a different world for me.
Welcome to our funny world anyhow :D ... in my experience all the different classes of instruments have their own peculiar obsessions, and I doubt we are all the much worse than many others.
Well to be fair pianists do obsess over things like posture and bench height and fingering and fingernails (although in the opposite direction) so yeah you're right. Just the terminology is different.

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bear
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Re: Predjudice and tunnel vision in music

Post by bear » Wed Jun 07, 2017 10:18 pm

Every point of view is an entrance to someone's tunnel.
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Jeffrey Armbruster
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Re: Predjudice and tunnel vision in music

Post by Jeffrey Armbruster » Wed Jun 07, 2017 10:37 pm

bear wrote:
Wed Jun 07, 2017 10:18 pm
Every point of view is an entrance to someone's tunnel.
I don't know. the point of pedagogy (and discipline) is to free you up from your limitations. it's not to bury you in another tunnel. Pink floyd's "we don't need no education/thought control/just another brick in the wall" never addresses the fact that without education you can't grow. and of course growth means becoming something that you weren't before. As teachers,people who play far better than me aren't peddling prejudice; their showing me a way towards greater freedom and ability. that's not digging a tunnel.
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MAK
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Re: Predjudice and tunnel vision in music

Post by MAK » Wed Jun 07, 2017 11:24 pm

ddray wrote:
Wed Jun 07, 2017 9:33 pm
Stephen Kenyon wrote:
Wed Jun 07, 2017 8:46 pm
ddray wrote:
Wed Jun 07, 2017 8:35 pm
... With a pianist it's pretty much understood that you're most likely not going to have a Steinway concert piano at home, unless you've made it and are wealthy. I don't know what sorts of discussions violinists, violists and cellists have. Maybe similar, maybe it's just a different world for me.
Welcome to our funny world anyhow :D ... in my experience all the different classes of instruments have their own peculiar obsessions, and I doubt we are all the much worse than many others.
Well to be fair pianists do obsess over things like posture and bench height and fingering and fingernails (although in the opposite direction) so yeah you're right. Just the terminology is different.
For pianists it's also, "Oh, no! You play a digital piano? That's not a real piano!"

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AndreiKrylov
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Re: Predjudice and tunnel vision in music

Post by AndreiKrylov » Wed Jun 07, 2017 11:28 pm

ddray wrote:
Wed Jun 07, 2017 8:09 pm
AndreiKrylov wrote:
Wed Jun 07, 2017 6:30 pm

But absolute majority (and here too) will simply reject all this .
and will continue to repeat and copy as it always was and will be.

So what? - Everybody make choices. I made mine. :)
I'm pretty new to the guitar and the guitar world, but the sort of tunnel vision I notice among guitarists (taking this forum as being typical, although I'm not sure if it is) consists of getting hung up on the sorts of things that you don't see among pianists for example (which is my frame of reference). Things like, what luthier made that? Rosewood or mahogany, spruce or cedar? What strings do you use? Oh no, not D'Addarios!!! Are my nails long enough? Am I using the proper file? An elevated fretboard is a must...how high should the footstool be? Should I hold my foot this way or that way? Should I wear leather pants so the guitar doesn't slip? and on and on. When things like that accumulate, the larger musical picture can be obscured.
Yes! and no :)
To have inspiration I have to have guitar with good sound (Rosewood or mahogany, spruce or cedar) :)
I like good strings ...
I like my files...
good fretboard...
convenient position with guitar
good strap, convenient clothes to play in etc.
But most important is to feel high just from the nice sound of guitar and it responsiveness and sound worlds which are coming out from it :)
I'd better speak by music...Please listen Andrei Krylov at Spotify, iTunes, Apple Music, Amazon Prime etc. Thanks!

ddray
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Re: Predjudice and tunnel vision in music

Post by ddray » Wed Jun 07, 2017 11:46 pm

MAK wrote:
Wed Jun 07, 2017 11:24 pm

For pianists it's also, "Oh, no! You play a digital piano? That's not a real piano!"
:lol: true, and if you save up for a decade to get a Yamaha 5' grand it's "eeeeeeewwww that is the WORST thing with 88 keys...I'd rather just play a spinet.." Human nature I guess.

Nick Clow
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Re: Predjudice and tunnel vision in music

Post by Nick Clow » Thu Jun 08, 2017 4:52 am

As Mr Kenyon says, the problem with classical guitarists (as is the same with any other group or denomination of humans) is that they are people!

Whilst the human has advanced in terms of problem-solving, intelligence, art, design, engineering and has created amazing systems of industry and commerce, its emotions remain on the same level as a chimpanzee.

Thus, people (consciously or unconsciously) engage in tribal or personal struggles or conflicts that involve self-interest, jealousy, one-upmanship, egotism and so on. This is played out every day everywhere, including on this forum.

Now then, time for my early afternoon banana.
formerly Edward Frillypants

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lucy
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Re: Predjudice and tunnel vision in music

Post by lucy » Thu Jun 08, 2017 6:13 am

Nick Clow wrote:
Thu Jun 08, 2017 4:52 am
As Mr Kenyon says, the problem with classical guitarists (as is the same with any other group or denomination of humans) is that they are people!

Whilst the human has advanced in terms of problem-solving, intelligence, art, design, engineering and has created amazing systems of industry and commerce, its emotions remain on the same level as a chimpanzee.

Thus, people (consciously or unconsciously) engage in tribal or personal struggles or conflicts that involve self-interest, jealousy, one-upmanship, egotism and so on. This is played out every day everywhere, including on this forum.

Now then, time for my early afternoon banana.
:lol: :okok:
“Do what you can, with what you have, where you are”. Theodore Roosevelt

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Denian Arcoleo
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Re: Predjudice and tunnel vision in music

Post by Denian Arcoleo » Thu Jun 08, 2017 6:23 am

Nick Clow wrote:
Thu Jun 08, 2017 4:52 am
As Mr Kenyon says, the problem with classical guitarists (as is the same with any other group or denomination of humans) is that they are people!

Whilst the human has advanced in terms of problem-solving, intelligence, art, design, engineering and has created amazing systems of industry and commerce, its emotions remain on the same level as a chimpanzee.

Thus, people (consciously or unconsciously) engage in tribal or personal struggles or conflicts that involve self-interest, jealousy, one-upmanship, egotism and so on. This is played out every day everywhere, including on this forum.

Now then, time for my early afternoon banana.
:lol:
:bravo:

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Peter Lovett
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Re: Predjudice and tunnel vision in music

Post by Peter Lovett » Thu Jun 08, 2017 8:04 am

I think that criticism based on such things as, cedar/spruce, 6/10 strings, nails/no nails, Torres/Smallman guitars etc. can be dismissed as irrelevant, it is a personal preference. Criticism based on musical interpretation, performance, sound production quality, etc. have far more substance, especially if the maker has the intellectual chops to justify their view.

Opinions are like fundamental orifices, everyone has one but there are very few fundamental orifices that are worth listening.
1994 Jim Williams lattice braced, Cedar/Tasmanian Blackwood

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bear
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Re: Predjudice and tunnel vision in music

Post by bear » Thu Jun 08, 2017 11:11 am

Jeffrey Armbruster wrote:
Wed Jun 07, 2017 10:37 pm
bear wrote:
Wed Jun 07, 2017 10:18 pm
Every point of view is an entrance to someone's tunnel.
I don't know. the point of pedagogy (and discipline) is to free you up from your limitations. it's not to bury you in another tunnel. Pink floyd's "we don't need no education/thought control/just another brick in the wall" never addresses the fact that without education you can't grow. and of course growth means becoming something that you weren't before. As teachers,people who play far better than me aren't peddling prejudice; their showing me a way towards greater freedom and ability. that's not digging a tunnel.
It is not possible to travel all roads at once. You accept some information as fact, some under consideration and some as fallacy. this forms the basis of your opinions and beliefs. You may, at any time, move information from one category to another but there are things that you will believe to be true and things that you believe not to be true. This is what creates your tunnel.
This is one of the opinions that is my tunnel. I may listen to other opinions and can incorporate them or reject them. I can also acknowledge that they are part of someone's tunnel.
When you reject information as untrue or unacceptable, you build the walls of your tunnel. No digging is required. I believe we all do it, no mind is completely open at all times, about all things.
\
2013 Jeff Medlin '37 Hauser 640mm sp
2006 Michele Della Guistina Concert 10 string 650mm ce
2005 Jose Ramirez 4E 650mm ce
2005 Manuel Rodriguez Model C3F 650mm sp
2003 Manuel Rodriguez Model D 650mm ce

ddray
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Re: Predjudice and tunnel vision in music

Post by ddray » Thu Jun 08, 2017 11:15 am

Nick Clow wrote:
Thu Jun 08, 2017 4:52 am
As Mr Kenyon says, the problem with classical guitarists (as is the same with any other group or denomination of humans) is that they are people!

Whilst the human has advanced in terms of problem-solving, intelligence, art, design, engineering and has created amazing systems of industry and commerce, its emotions remain on the same level as a chimpanzee.

Thus, people (consciously or unconsciously) engage in tribal or personal struggles or conflicts that involve self-interest, jealousy, one-upmanship, egotism and so on. This is played out every day everywhere, including on this forum.

Now then, time for my early afternoon banana.
Chimpanzees aside, yes of course we're all only human. The danger is for that to become a catch-all excuse. Yeah humans make mistakes, but they can also acknowledge and rectify them.
Peter Lovett wrote:
Thu Jun 08, 2017 8:04 am
I think that criticism based on such things as, cedar/spruce, 6/10 strings, nails/no nails, Torres/Smallman guitars etc. can be dismissed as irrelevant, it is a personal preference. Criticism based on musical interpretation, performance, sound production quality, etc. have far more substance, especially if the maker has the intellectual chops to justify their view.

Opinions are like fundamental orifices, everyone has one but there are very few fundamental orifices that are worth listening.
Exactly. I believe the problem comes from these secondary things becoming primary.

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guitareleven
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Re: Predjudice and tunnel vision in music

Post by guitareleven » Thu Jun 08, 2017 12:17 pm

There is seemingly more to be done than can be done in order to become a complete musician on any instrument. Choices have to made, paths that diverge chosen. The flip sides of prejudice and tunnel vision, are commitment and focus, which is what it takes in order to make those choices. If, because of personal limitation they emerge as prejudice and tunnel vision, that's human nature.

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