Segovia's Remembranza

A "classroom" environment for exchanging Technical Questions & Answers, How-To's, music theory concepts, etc.
Fretful
Posts: 69
Joined: Wed May 11, 2016 2:00 pm

Segovia's Remembranza

Post by Fretful » Wed Nov 08, 2017 1:12 pm

Does anybody have a problem with sliding finger 4 from D to E while sustaining the A with finger 2 (as written), or do most of you shirk it by allowing finger 2 to be displaced towards Bflat ?
REMEMBRANZA.jpg
Many thanks
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Last edited by Fretful on Wed Nov 08, 2017 2:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Rasputin
Posts: 533
Joined: Fri May 12, 2017 12:25 pm

Re: Remembranza

Post by Rasputin » Wed Nov 08, 2017 1:45 pm

Don't know the piece but there's no way I could do that.

Fretful
Posts: 69
Joined: Wed May 11, 2016 2:00 pm

Re: Remembranza

Post by Fretful » Wed Nov 08, 2017 2:29 pm

I should have mentioned : Remembranza is the second of Segovia's Three Daily Studies (you'll have to get up pretty early in the morning and practice all day!)
The Master himself : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLnc9CNzkew

User avatar
Mark Clifton-Gaultier
Posts: 1040
Joined: Tue Dec 08, 2009 1:03 pm
Location: England

Re: Segovia's Remembranza

Post by Mark Clifton-Gaultier » Wed Nov 08, 2017 2:46 pm

Fretful wrote:Does anybody have a problem with sliding finger 4 from D to E while sustaining the A with finger 2 (as written), or do most of you shirk it by allowing finger 2 to be displaced towards Bflat ?
Segovia himself shirked it releasing both the bottom F and the A , essentially executing the accompaniment as a quarter-note.

User avatar
David Norton
Posts: 3988
Joined: Sun Jan 27, 2008 4:12 pm
Location: Salt Lake City, UT, USA

Re: Segovia's Remembranza

Post by David Norton » Wed Nov 08, 2017 3:17 pm

Segovia was clearly never one to adhere to the literal value of the printed note. He would cut off long notes, and allow short notes to carry over onto rests.

A fine analogy I read the other day: "We do not pronounce the 'u' in the word 'guitar', even though it is clearly written there and it costs the printer extra ink to publish it in that spelling. So obviously the writer expects the 'u' to be pronounced, no? Of course not!!" So too with notation.
David Norton
Salt Lake City, UT

Fretful
Posts: 69
Joined: Wed May 11, 2016 2:00 pm

Re: Segovia's Remembranza

Post by Fretful » Thu Nov 09, 2017 12:25 am

David Norton wrote:
Wed Nov 08, 2017 3:17 pm
A fine analogy I read the other day: "We do not pronounce the 'u' in the word 'guitar', even though it is clearly written there and it costs the printer extra ink to publish it in that spelling. So obviously the writer expects the 'u' to be pronounced, no? Of course not!!" So too with notation.
Good quote ... from the land where they write "colour" WITHOUT 'u' !

Fretful
Posts: 69
Joined: Wed May 11, 2016 2:00 pm

Re: Segovia's Remembranza

Post by Fretful » Sun Nov 12, 2017 3:21 pm

Mark Clifton-Gaultier wrote:
Wed Nov 08, 2017 2:46 pm
Segovia himself shirked it releasing both the bottom F and the A , essentially executing the accompaniment as a quarter-note.
Thank you for your reactions ; I am disappointed that there were so few responses regarding this great study which shines through its technical challenges, musical astuteness, and rich exploration of gorgeous sonorities, once you get it up to speed. Segovia really was not only a superlative player but also a great writer for the instrument ; how sad that he didn’t compose more ; meanwhile we can treasure San Luz, Oracion, and Remembranza.
I would like to disagree, though, with your comments, and – DARE I say - with Segovia if, indeed, he does ignore his own writing for the bar in question. Let us remember that this piece is a study for “daily” workouts. What are studies for if not, partly, to develop technique ? And technique on the guitar is largely concerned with stretch or, rather, lack of it inasmuch as those with a fully developed technique no longer need to “stretch” as the fingertips naturally position themselves across four, five, or even six frets ; some players (I need not mention names) will play Bass F on 6 and Bb on 1, then lift the fingers off the board and they will stay there in that configuration without them having to be “held” there ... and that’s a lovely feeling! ... Not to play bar 65 (in Remembranza) as written is to miss an opportunity to develop the lateral extension of the metacarpal phalanges (crucial for guitarists). Also, as the bar progresses through E minor, D minor, and resolves into the dominant F#, the transitional E produces an excellent dissonance (F, A, E) provided the F and A are held. The reason Segovia, in this instance, ignores his own writing(if he does) is that - despite his protestations that “Portamento is not my friend”, he often uses to great effect and with a very strong dose of vibrato to boot, at the risk of what some might call a certain lack of good taste (as, for instance, unforgettably, in Ponce’s Weiss pastiche - he just cannot resist it, and we cannot resist enjoying the thrill of the magical and inimitable sonority).
It’s true that this stretch (F, A, E) seems at first insurmountable. I persevered for the sake of the “study” spirit, and was about to give up trying when I realised that with just a little extra pressure with 2 to anchor it on the A, and a slight shift to make the LH knuckles parallel to the fingerboard (bringing the pinkie’s third knuckle closer to the fifth fret), the shift actually became much easier. A great bonus of this technical development enabled me - at long last - to play the seventh bar of Milonga del Angel - as written in the Benítez arrangement, sustaining the Bass A throughout the bar (yes, I know, Ana Vidovic shirks it magnificently, but it is nice to have the option at one’s disposal (and I have no doubt she has) !)
Guitarists often award themselves an overdose of latitude where notation is concerned ; such liberties would be inconceivable, for instance, for pianists studying the great sonatas of their repertoire ; the may use rubato and expression but they play the notes where and as the composers wrote them, or get their knuckles wrapped! (Source : RAM)
In conclusion, striving for a so-called comprehensive technique does imply trying to master these challenging aspects, lest one should become victim of what Segovia, in one of his master classes, called “your laziness, my dear!”
del Angel - Bar 7.jpg
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

Rasputin
Posts: 533
Joined: Fri May 12, 2017 12:25 pm

Re: Segovia's Remembranza

Post by Rasputin » Sun Nov 12, 2017 3:44 pm

I can't do it regardless of how much pressure I put on the A, and anyway this does not sound like a very healthy approach. I would be inclined take it up the fretboard to a point where it can be done without undue force, then look to bring it down very gradually.

I also think that trying to keep your hand spread the whole time is a Very Bad Idea. It may open up over time, so that the fingers naturally lie further apart even when curled, but that is not the same thing.

Fretful
Posts: 69
Joined: Wed May 11, 2016 2:00 pm

Re: Segovia's Remembranza

Post by Fretful » Sun Nov 12, 2017 11:23 pm

Rasputin wrote:
Sun Nov 12, 2017 3:44 pm
I can't do it regardless of how much pressure I put on the A,
I actually wrote : just a little extra pressure with 2 to anchor it on the A. You'd be amazed how little you need once you've identified WHICH muscles and tendons are involved ; we ALL suffer from resorting to more than we actually need.
Otherwise, I agree with all you say ; if you look at JW's left hand, the fingers are always generously separated, and this without any effort at all ... of course, that comes from having played, at first a small guitar, but then (quite soon) big guitars from a very tender age.
All best!

John Stone
Posts: 346
Joined: Fri Jul 18, 2014 5:32 am
Location: Ohio, USA

Re: Segovia's Remembranza

Post by John Stone » Mon Nov 13, 2017 1:37 am

Mark Clifton-Gaultier wrote:
Wed Nov 08, 2017 2:46 pm
Fretful wrote:Does anybody have a problem with sliding finger 4 from D to E while sustaining the A with finger 2 (as written), or do most of you shirk it by allowing finger 2 to be displaced towards Bflat ?
Segovia himself shirked it releasing both the bottom F and the A , essentially executing the accompaniment as a quarter-note.
That's how Alirio Diaz does it. The video starts shortly before the notes in question:

https://youtu.be/nLnc9CNzkew?t=97
Last edited by John Stone on Mon Nov 13, 2017 2:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
2001 Manuel Velazquez
1977 Ramirez 1a
2014 Cordoba C10
They said, "You have a blue guitar, You do not play things as they are." The man replied, "Things as they are / Are changed upon the blue guitar."

decamara
Posts: 37
Joined: Wed Aug 07, 2013 7:00 am

Re: Segovia's Remembranza

Post by decamara » Mon Nov 13, 2017 2:23 am

That you tube example is Alirio Diaz playing
Not Segovia

But an example
None the less

John Stone
Posts: 346
Joined: Fri Jul 18, 2014 5:32 am
Location: Ohio, USA

Re: Segovia's Remembranza

Post by John Stone » Mon Nov 13, 2017 2:36 am

decamara wrote:
Mon Nov 13, 2017 2:23 am
That you tube example is Alirio Diaz playing
Not Segovia

But an example
None the less
Good catch! Will fix post.

Can anyone find a Segovia performance of this online? I'll bet he does the same thing.
2001 Manuel Velazquez
1977 Ramirez 1a
2014 Cordoba C10
They said, "You have a blue guitar, You do not play things as they are." The man replied, "Things as they are / Are changed upon the blue guitar."

Fretful
Posts: 69
Joined: Wed May 11, 2016 2:00 pm

Re: Segovia's Remembranza

Post by Fretful » Mon Nov 13, 2017 12:02 pm

John Stone wrote:
Mon Nov 13, 2017 2:36 am
Can anyone find a Segovia performance of this online? I'll bet he does the same thing.
Yes, here is the maestro himself playing it (audio only) :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLnc9CNzkew
There is no video of him playing it though ... It is very difficult to discern whether he plays it as written or not because his guitar (is it the legendary Hauser ?) has such an incredible sustain (a lot of it being sympathetic, I think) and yet remains very crisp and clear : "... there's magic in the web of it .."

Fretful
Posts: 69
Joined: Wed May 11, 2016 2:00 pm

Re: Segovia's Remembranza

Post by Fretful » Mon Nov 13, 2017 12:12 pm

John Stone wrote:
Mon Nov 13, 2017 2:36 am
decamara wrote:
Mon Nov 13, 2017 2:23 am
That you tube example is Alirio Diaz playing
Not Segovia

But an example
None the less
Good catch! Will fix post.

Can anyone find a Segovia performance of this online? I'll bet he does the same thing.
Now I am really confused, having assumed (because of the photo on the youtube clip AND because of the sound) that that was Segovia ; I had not been aware that Diaz could do such a good imitation of Segovia. Would anyone have any idea of what guitar Diaz was playing there ?

decamara
Posts: 37
Joined: Wed Aug 07, 2013 7:00 am

Re: Segovia's Remembranza

Post by decamara » Tue Nov 14, 2017 5:42 am

Segovias rh thumb and ami nail techniques were different tonally than Diaz’s

I have never found an actual recording of Segovia playing this particular piece

Parkening recorded it
And is a beautifully refined recording

I won’t guess on which guitar Alirio used in his recording

Return to “Classical Guitar Classes”