Your musical lineage?

Discussions relating to the classical guitar which don't fit elsewhere.
Jeffrey Armbruster
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Re: Your musical lineage?

Post by Jeffrey Armbruster » Sun Nov 12, 2017 2:27 am

Segovia--MIchael Lorimer--John Harris--me.
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Tomzooki
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Re: Your musical lineage?

Post by Tomzooki » Sun Nov 12, 2017 4:55 pm

Erik Zurcher wrote:
Sat Nov 11, 2017 10:42 pm
Interesting lineage! Did Martin Prevel receive lessons from both Ida Presti and Alexandre Lagoya?
Yes; Presti and Lagoya were performing in duo, and were very active in Quebec, teaching in Mont Orford summer school back in the sixties. They had a very strong influence here on a whole generation, even two generations, of classical guitarists here.

I think what is the main reason guitarists turned their back from their influence, beside time and rising of new influent virtuosos, is the « à droite » right hand technique. While it was very efficient for them, and for some of their pupils, it caused tendonitis, distonias and a lot of other physical problems to several guitarists, including my own teacher.

Ida Presti seemed to have been a « hors normes », very exceptionnal, musician. I heard, and saw, some people who had the chance to know her, to have seen and heard her in concert. When they talked about her their eyes were gleaming as if they had seen God in person. It is so sad she died so young :cry:
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Tomzooki
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Re: Your musical lineage?

Post by Tomzooki » Sun Nov 12, 2017 4:58 pm

Kent wrote:
Sun Nov 12, 2017 12:34 am
Tomzooki wrote:
Sat Nov 11, 2017 5:47 pm
Interesting thread :-)

Ida Presti and Alexandre Lagoya - Martin Prevel - Paul-André Gagnon - me
Ida Presti.. Impressive!
I though we all started with Tarrega & Sor.
That must be the case :lol:
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rojarosguitar
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Re: Your musical lineage?

Post by rojarosguitar » Sun Nov 12, 2017 6:26 pm

Hmmm ... according to my humble understanding the concept of a 'lineage' comes in several places in the history and serves different purposes...

There are the blood lineages of of the 'nobility' which served the purpose of making sure you belonged to the right social group ( :wink: accidentally that one with political and economical power, at least in times when the lineage still was important).

In science and philosophy the lineage is a kind of legitimation of a certain prestige and also a means of securing a certain continuity of transmission of ideas (which came first depends on place and time). It was and is a door-opener in certain institutions...

Accidentally, in certain parts of Buddhism (maybe also other religious traditions) the 'lineage' was very important to make sure that a certain authenticity of the teachings and instructions was maintained.

In all these contexts the term 'lineage' shifted the assessment of quality away from the individual person to an institutionally granted guaranty.

Now, what purpose could that serve in music? You cant inherit the genes of Segovia or Bream or whomever people admire. So that aspect is irrelevant.

And having had a great teacher doesn't automatically make you a great player (or a worse player than him/her, for that matter). So the sociological function of quoting a lineage can only be to enhance one's chances within the field of competition in terms of prestige, income, positions etc.

Hmmm ...
Music is a big continent with different landscapes and corners. Some of them I do visit frequently, some from time to time and some I know from hearsay only ...

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lucy
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Re: Your musical lineage?

Post by lucy » Sun Nov 12, 2017 6:45 pm

I seem to have three, now I've thought about it!

Segovia - John Williams - Carlos Bonell - Me

Bream - Adrian Neville - Me

Lagoya / Presti - Gilbert Biberian - Me
“Do what you can, with what you have, where you are”. Theodore Roosevelt

doralikesmath
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Re: Your musical lineage?

Post by doralikesmath » Sun Nov 12, 2017 6:59 pm

Another me>me here...
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ddray
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Re: Your musical lineage?

Post by ddray » Sun Nov 12, 2017 7:16 pm

doralikesmath wrote:
Sun Nov 12, 2017 6:59 pm
Another me>me here...
Same here. So if your "teachers" are the great composers and their editors, it could be: Buxtehude>J. S. Bach>J.C. Bach>Haydn>Mozart>Beethoven>Czerny>Liszt>Reinecke>Busoni>various twists turns and forks>my first piano teacher lol
Last edited by ddray on Mon Nov 13, 2017 12:09 am, edited 3 times in total.

Rognvald
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Post by Rognvald » Sun Nov 12, 2017 7:23 pm

rojarosguitar wrote:
Sun Nov 12, 2017 6:26 pm
Hmmm ... according to my humble understanding the concept of a 'lineage' comes in several places in the history and serves different purposes...

There are the blood lineages of of the 'nobility' which served the purpose of making sure you belonged to the right social group ( :wink: accidentally that one with political and economical power, at least in times when the lineage still was important).

In science and philosophy the lineage is a kind of legitimation of a certain prestige and also a means of securing a certain continuity of transmission of ideas (which came first depends on place and time). It was and is a door-opener in certain institutions...

Accidentally, in certain parts of Buddhism (maybe also other religious traditions) the 'lineage' was very important to make sure that a certain authenticity of the teachings and instructions was maintained.

In all these contexts the term 'lineage' shifted the assessment of quality away from the individual person to an institutionally granted guaranty.

Now, what purpose could that serve in music? You cant inherit the genes of Segovia or Bream or whomever people admire. So that aspect is irrelevant.

And having had a great teacher doesn't automatically make you a great player (or a worse player than him/her, for that matter). So the sociological function of quoting a lineage can only be to enhance one's chances within the field of competition in terms of prestige, income, positions etc.

Hmmm
Quote

This is very well stated, Rojaro, but there doesn't have to be a negative connotation to the concept of lineage. For example, when I played tenor saxophone, my lineage would have been Ben Webster, Coleman Hawkins, Gene Ammons, Dexter Gordon since I was a lyrical player who paid attention to melody and found expression in nuances, inflections, phrasing, and melodic improvisation without having to engage in the frenetic, polytonal "sheets of sound" played by Coltrane(in his progressive stage), Roland Kirk, Archie Shepp and others. So, as I developed my craft, I used these former players as my foundation and soundboard to building my own voice within the context of my musical personality. In regards to CG, this would be difficult for me since my tastes are more eclectic and perhaps less focused on a "lineage," ergo: Segovia, Bream, Eduardo Fernandez, Ricardo Gallen, Dyens, Yamandu Costa, Dylla, Fabio Zanon are some of my favorites but there is no stylistic link, in my opinion, among these artists other than their uniqueness and personal voice. And, perhaps, since I came to the CG at a later stage in my life, I am more open-minded to differing sounds in creating/building my voice on the CG. However, emanating from a "lineage" is certainly possible. Playing again . . . Rognvald
"And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music." Friedrich Nietzsche, Thus Spake Zarathustra

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rojarosguitar
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Re:

Post by rojarosguitar » Sun Nov 12, 2017 8:09 pm

Rognvald wrote:
Sun Nov 12, 2017 7:23 pm
This is very well stated, Rojaro, but there doesn't have to be a negative connotation to the concept of lineage. For example, when I played tenor saxophone, my lineage would have been Ben Webster, Coleman Hawkins, Gene Ammons, Dexter Gordon since I was a lyrical player who paid attention to melody and found expression in nuances, inflections, phrasing, and melodic improvisation without having to engage in the frenetic, polytonal "sheets of sound" played by Coltrane(in his progressive stage), Roland Kirk, Archie Shepp and others. So, as I developed my craft, I used these former players as my foundation and soundboard to building my own voice within the context of my musical personality. In regards to CG, this would be difficult for me since my tastes are more eclectic and perhaps less focused on a "lineage," ergo: Segovia, Bream, Eduardo Fernandez, Ricardo Gallen, Dyens, Yamandu Costa, Dylla, Fabio Zanon are some of my favorites but there is no stylistic link, in my opinion, among these artists other than their uniqueness and personal voice. And, perhaps, since I came to the CG at a later stage in my life, I am more open-minded to differing sounds in creating/building my voice on the CG. However, emanating from a "lineage" is certainly possible. Playing again . . . Rognvald
Thanks for considering my comment! I'm actually not meaning that there automatically is any negative connotation to lineage, quite the contrary, I appreciate lineages of thought and practice quite a bit; I'm just trying to question the motif for talking about it and stating oneself as being a part of that lineage.
There is a subtle but important difference in saying: 'I have studied withing the lineage of, e.g. Bream>XX>yy' and stating: 'Bream>XX>yy>me'.

Of course there is also a difference between tracing back the lineage of teacher as actual students of their predecessors and just lining up the lineages of influences.

As usual I'm more interested in open reflection than in criticizing people :D
Music is a big continent with different landscapes and corners. Some of them I do visit frequently, some from time to time and some I know from hearsay only ...

ddray
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Re: Re:

Post by ddray » Sun Nov 12, 2017 8:18 pm

rojarosguitar wrote:
Sun Nov 12, 2017 8:09 pm


Of course there is also a difference between tracing back the lineage of teacher as actual students of their predecessors and just lining up the lineages of influences.
I would say that the difference is that the influences can be far more important. It's still teaching. Both Czerny and Liszt had pupils who later repudiated their teachers. So it follows that a student of Eugen D'Albert was not necessarily by extension a student of Liszt.

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rojarosguitar
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Re: Your musical lineage?

Post by rojarosguitar » Sun Nov 12, 2017 8:20 pm

Sure, I just meant that these are different kinds of 'lineages' ... thanks for clarification!
Music is a big continent with different landscapes and corners. Some of them I do visit frequently, some from time to time and some I know from hearsay only ...

ddray
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Re: Your musical lineage?

Post by ddray » Sun Nov 12, 2017 8:26 pm

...
Last edited by ddray on Mon Nov 13, 2017 12:10 am, edited 1 time in total.

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AndreiKrylov
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Re: Your musical lineage?

Post by AndreiKrylov » Sun Nov 12, 2017 9:44 pm

My musical lineage?:)
Well...from my birth and even in the womb I listened (and learned? :) ) classical and Gypsy music on guitar...
Later one I also felt in love with Renaissance, Baroque, Celtic, Rock, Blues, Jazz, Fusion etc.
Teachers? I had few... some even took lessons from pupils of Segovia too..
but... I always took everything they taught me with grain of salt and rejected many of they approaches...
therefore what is my real lineage ?
Probably just my ancestors...
I'd better speak by music...Please listen it on Spotify, Apple Music, Deezer, etc. Thanks!

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Re: Your musical lineage?

Post by chiral3 » Sun Nov 12, 2017 9:52 pm

I have 2 degrees of separation from Oscar Ghilia, Alirio Diaz, and Jose Tomas. So I suppose I have 3 degrees from Segovia.
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Erik Zurcher
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Re: Your musical lineage?

Post by Erik Zurcher » Sun Nov 12, 2017 11:04 pm

I consider Andres Segovia as 'the stem of a tree of which many branches grew'. The reason to start this thread is to find out if there are other 'stems'? Segovia was the most famous classical guitarist of his time, but there were others: Luise Walker in Vienna, Maria Luisa Anido in Buenos Aires. Perhaps less famous than Segovia, but nonetheless influential.

Musical lineage are words I choose to emphasize the influence of former great guitarists to their students, not as a value judgement. It is about their musical and historical legacy.
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