Your musical lineage?

Discussions relating to the classical guitar which don't fit elsewhere.
Taylor 25
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Re: Your musical lineage?

Post by Taylor 25 » Sun Nov 12, 2017 11:26 pm

As a self-taught amateur player of several instruments, I really had no musical lineage to speak of. lol. But after joining Elite Guitarist with Tavi Jinariu for over a year, I can now claim an indirect connection to CG royalty. Assuming that we can count being a student of web based CG lessons in this discussion, then my CG lineage would look something like this:

Andres Segovia > Christopher Parkening > Tavi Jinariu > me

Of course, as a mere CG hobbyist (and occasional church performer), I am nowhere near the level of those men. But I do think that having such an awesome lineage should at least be good for a discount at GSI or something! Don't you think? :)

Steve

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Tomzooki
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Re: Your musical lineage?

Post by Tomzooki » Mon Nov 13, 2017 12:31 am

rojarosguitar wrote:
Sun Nov 12, 2017 6:26 pm
Hmmm ... according to my humble understanding the concept of a 'lineage' comes in several places in the history and serves different purposes...

There are the blood lineages of of the 'nobility' which served the purpose of making sure you belonged to the right social group ( :wink: accidentally that one with political and economical power, at least in times when the lineage still was important).

In science and philosophy the lineage is a kind of legitimation of a certain prestige and also a means of securing a certain continuity of transmission of ideas (which came first depends on place and time). It was and is a door-opener in certain institutions...

Accidentally, in certain parts of Buddhism (maybe also other religious traditions) the 'lineage' was very important to make sure that a certain authenticity of the teachings and instructions was maintained.

In all these contexts the term 'lineage' shifted the assessment of quality away from the individual person to an institutionally granted guaranty.

Now, what purpose could that serve in music? You cant inherit the genes of Segovia or Bream or whomever people admire. So that aspect is irrelevant.

And having had a great teacher doesn't automatically make you a great player (or a worse player than him/her, for that matter). So the sociological function of quoting a lineage can only be to enhance one's chances within the field of competition in terms of prestige, income, positions etc.

Hmmm ...
Your point is very interesting, for me particularily because I only saw the « artistic legacy » point of view in this topic.

And that reminds me of some subtle intercultural differences between « us » and « others » I noticed on several occasions. Historically , here in Quebec there was no nobility hierarchy when they founded the colony, to avoid the social issues they had in the Old World. Of course there were several other social issues - very strong and oppressive church, the english vs french tensions, etc, but the result is that people here generally does not care nor take pride of their ancestry lineage, and in the same way nobody would think to brag about being the student of a famous guitarist, here it would look quite weird LOL. Of course we have boasting people, but they boast about other issues. For example one could brag about how is playing has been prised by a reknown person, but not simply about being a student of a reknown person.

Just to make sure I am clear here, when I talk about intercultural differences it is in the very general way. For example there is one between generations, and I can testify there is a huge gap between my own mother and me, I often have to restrain myself to express my disaproval about her opinions... I described one aspect of the french-canadian society, which here may seem a positive one, but in no ways I consider we are better, we are just different, and we have our « dark sides » :twisted:
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chiral3
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Re: Your musical lineage?

Post by chiral3 » Mon Nov 13, 2017 1:25 am

Erik Zurcher wrote:
Sun Nov 12, 2017 11:04 pm
I consider Andres Segovia as 'the stem of a tree of which many branches grew'. The reason to start this thread is to find out if there are other 'stems'? Segovia was the most famous classical guitarist of his time, but there were others: Luise Walker in Vienna, Maria Luisa Anido in Buenos Aires. Perhaps less famous than Segovia, but nonetheless influential.

Musical lineage are words I choose to emphasize the influence of former great guitarists to their students, not as a value judgement. It is about their musical and historical legacy.
It breaks down a bit otherwise. When I look up who, in my lineage, Jose Tomas studied with, you find people that were engineers and lawyers. I would have 4 degrees with Regino Sainz de la Maza or Pujol, but I have know idea who Santiago Landache was. Unlike violinists who can say they have 5 degrees with Paganini or Vivaldi going back 300 or 400 years.
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ddray
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Re: Your musical lineage?

Post by ddray » Mon Nov 13, 2017 2:04 am

chiral3 wrote:
Mon Nov 13, 2017 1:25 am
Unlike violinists who can say they have 5 degrees with Paganini or Vivaldi going back 300 or 400 years.
Well that's the thing. Anyone who plays classical music on the piano (for example) and who studied at all systematically has a "lineage" (direct or indirect) that goes back to Czerny and even before that to Beethoven and Mozart and Bach.
The "great stem" for guitar I suppose would be Tárrega or maybe even earlier with Sor, Giuliani and others. Segovia was their "son" or "grandson" or something lol...even though he didn't have personal lessons with them. Just my opinion.

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Contreras
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Re: Your musical lineage?

Post by Contreras » Mon Nov 13, 2017 2:41 am

Miguel Llobet >> Rey de la Torre >> Patrick Bashford (RCM) >> me
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rojarosguitar
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Re: Your musical lineage?

Post by rojarosguitar » Mon Nov 13, 2017 7:48 am

Tomzooki wrote:
Mon Nov 13, 2017 12:31 am

Your point is very interesting, for me particularily because I only saw the « artistic legacy » point of view in this topic.

And that reminds me of some subtle intercultural differences between « us » and « others » I noticed on several occasions. Historically , here in Quebec there was no nobility hierarchy when they founded the colony, to avoid the social issues they had in the Old World. Of course there were several other social issues - very strong and oppressive church, the english vs french tensions, etc, but the result is that people here generally does not care nor take pride of their ancestry lineage, and in the same way nobody would think to brag about being the student of a famous guitarist, here it would look quite weird LOL. Of course we have boasting people, but they boast about other issues. For example one could brag about how is playing has been prised by a reknown person, but not simply about being a student of a reknown person.

Just to make sure I am clear here, when I talk about intercultural differences it is in the very general way. For example there is one between generations, and I can testify there is a huge gap between my own mother and me, I often have to restrain myself to express my disaproval about her opinions... I described one aspect of the french-canadian society, which here may seem a positive one, but in no ways I consider we are better, we are just different, and we have our « dark sides » :twisted:
Well, lineages are not necessarily blood lineages, and every society, even the most democratic, seems to develop its own elites and hierarchies and lineages can play an important role to navigate within them.

If we think about legacies, than of course everybody is a part of unimaginable network of lineages of cultural heritages, even the most in-elaborate musician banging his three chords on the street corner has inherited the lineage of guitar making and of musical structures common to the culture he belongs to, not to talk about all the other lineages (how to wear clothes, how to clean teeth etc... :lol: ).

Interestingly in Tibetan Buddhism they make distinction between people belonging to the lineage via the factum of having studied with certain teachers who themselves belong to certain lineages, and the so called 'lineage holders' who are those people who got entrusted with the complete tradition of that lineage and carry the responsibility to ensure the continuity of that particular tradition. In this context it is not only prestigious to be part of a lineage, but entails also a tremendous responsibility requiring a high degree of ethical behavior and wisdom how to use the tradition.

I don't see all of this in the context of musical performance, where more often than not the ego enhancement and self-aggrandizing (also due to the tremendous competition that field) is at the center of the commotion that is produced.

But anyway, it's just by way of reflection and not to tell other people what to do :wink:
Music is a big continent with different landscapes and corners. Some of them I do visit frequently, some from time to time and some I know from hearsay only ...

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Stephen Kenyon
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Re: Your musical lineage?

Post by Stephen Kenyon » Mon Nov 13, 2017 10:57 am

Contreras wrote:
Mon Nov 13, 2017 2:41 am
Miguel Llobet >> Rey de la Torre >> Patrick Bashford (RCM) >> me
Think you'll find you can put Tarrega in front of Llobet to add to your lineage 🤓
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Stephen Kenyon
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Re: Your musical lineage?

Post by Stephen Kenyon » Mon Nov 13, 2017 11:25 am

lucy wrote:
Sun Nov 12, 2017 6:45 pm
Lagoya / Presti - Gilbert Biberian - Me
How'd you know Gilbert?
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Smudger5150
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Re: Your musical lineage?

Post by Smudger5150 » Mon Nov 13, 2017 12:06 pm

When I had guitar lessons years ago up at Stoke it would have been:-

John Williams' dad+Segovia(?) >> John Williams >> Carlos Bonell >> John Lambert (ACRM/LRAM) >> me

I think John L studied with Carlos Bonell..

But nowadays:-

delcamp+Noad+Sagreras+Tennant+MelBay tutors >> me
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PeteJ
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Re: Your musical lineage?

Post by PeteJ » Mon Nov 13, 2017 12:34 pm

Alexander Lagoya - Emilio Pujol - Thomas Hartman - Mike Watson - Gordon Saunders - John Edwards - me.

Blimey. I hadn't thought of this before. I really ought to be better.

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StGeorge
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Re: Your musical lineage?

Post by StGeorge » Mon Nov 13, 2017 12:40 pm

Sophocles Papas > David and Martin Luse > me. 8)
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malc laney
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Re: Your musical lineage?

Post by malc laney » Mon Nov 13, 2017 1:29 pm

My brother in law is going to have his DNA done , in a few years we'll be able to find if there's a music gene and it's origin , and our own genius.

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Adrian Allan
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Re: Your musical lineage?

Post by Adrian Allan » Mon Nov 13, 2017 1:47 pm

Well, here is mine:

Julian Bream - Martin Roberts - me

Craig Ogden - me

A note on the above. Martin Roberts was one of the best UK players in the 1950s -1960s, and he is often mentioned in BMG, but he never felt comfortable performing, so he spent his life teaching mainly kids in schools, which was a real shame. I met Julian Bream in 1992 and he remembered Martin Roberts very well. I have also had a few Skype lessons from Cheryl Grice, who was for a period taught by Julian Bream, not just in masterclasses.

I was taught by Craig Ogden quite a lot when he was just starting out, around 1993-6, in Manchester. He was taught in the UK by Gordon Crosskey, who I have met a few times at guitar events, and who taught many great players in the 1970s-90s. I have no idea how well he can actually play classical guitar himself, though, as he never seemed to perform. Perhaps somebody else can offer an insight on his playing skills and how he climbed the ladder.
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Stephen Kenyon
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Re: Your musical lineage?

Post by Stephen Kenyon » Mon Nov 13, 2017 3:41 pm

Adrian Allan wrote:
Mon Nov 13, 2017 1:47 pm
I was taught by Craig Ogden quite a lot when he was just starting out, around 1993-6, in Manchester. He was taught in the UK by Gordon Crosskey, who I have met a few times at guitar events, and who taught many great players in the 1970s-90s. I have no idea how well he can actually play classical guitar himself, though, as he never seemed to perform. Perhaps somebody else can offer an insight on his playing skills and how he climbed the ladder.
Gordon was never a performer, he fell into teaching guitar in schools in the very early days and basically moved into higher educational positions and was found able to contribute decisively and meaningfully to the development of many wonderful players, all of those I know speak of him in the highest terms.
Like Duarte and to an extent Michael Lewin (at RAM) it demonstrates that being a performer is not essential for all students, perhaps especially for some of the best.
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Adrian Allan
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Re: Your musical lineage?

Post by Adrian Allan » Mon Nov 13, 2017 3:55 pm

Not too sure about Duarte (remember that disparaging blog about the student who took up lessons with him in London), but I get your point. However, in today's climate, with so many great players, a high profile teaching post would probably only be taken up by a fairly high profile player. In the 1960s and 1970s, the number of performance level players in the UK was probably in the low single figures.
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