How to change global attitude in our Art? from copying as an ultimate purpose - to creation and self -expression?

Discussions relating to the classical guitar which don't fit elsewhere.
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bear
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Re: How to change global attitude in our Art? from copying as an ultimate purpose - to creation and self -expression?

Post by bear » Wed Dec 27, 2017 1:58 am

AndreiKrylov wrote:
Tue Dec 26, 2017 10:17 pm


It is great that we're all different!
Interesting point about modelling and recreation!
Myself when I play classical or whatever music from score I feel myself more like I am reading Poetry.
I could see (imagine) different pictures, imagine unreal or real worlds and if I am trying to recreate something.. then it is probably some of the general culture of that period (with which I am certainly familiar, by audio, visual and other records made by others, mainly by people from those times).
But somehow ( I can't even explain why - I never wanted to recreate any particular performance or artists , but always wanted to do it how I see it myself...
This reminds me of a discussion I had with a professional musician friend. I told him that I could not play with a group because I never played a piece the same way twice.
I play what I hear in my head and that dictates the tempo and dynamics.

Lanza, Boccelli, Pavarotti, Dean Martin, all sing the same piece but differently. Since, I learned to play by ear, I have many voices in my head and I play according to which one is singing at that time. Since, I'm a bit of a wise arse, I can't always resist adding a little something. I also think that stealing is good, So, if I like something that another has done (a riff or lick) - I may steal it.

I think there are instances when we should reflect the composer and times when we should explore a little.
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Re: How to change global attitude in our Art? from copying as an ultimate purpose - to creation and self -expression?

Post by AndreiKrylov » Wed Dec 27, 2017 2:58 pm

bear wrote:
Wed Dec 27, 2017 1:58 am
AndreiKrylov wrote:
Tue Dec 26, 2017 10:17 pm


It is great that we're all different!
Interesting point about modelling and recreation!
Myself when I play classical or whatever music from score I feel myself more like I am reading Poetry.
I could see (imagine) different pictures, imagine unreal or real worlds and if I am trying to recreate something.. then it is probably some of the general culture of that period (with which I am certainly familiar, by audio, visual and other records made by others, mainly by people from those times).
But somehow ( I can't even explain why - I never wanted to recreate any particular performance or artists , but always wanted to do it how I see it myself...
This reminds me of a discussion I had with a professional musician friend. I told him that I could not play with a group because I never played a piece the same way twice.
I play what I hear in my head and that dictates the tempo and dynamics.

Lanza, Boccelli, Pavarotti, Dean Martin, all sing the same piece but differently. Since, I learned to play by ear, I have many voices in my head and I play according to which one is singing at that time. Since, I'm a bit of a wise arse, I can't always resist adding a little something. I also think that stealing is good, So, if I like something that another has done (a riff or lick) - I may steal it.

I think there are instances when we should reflect the composer and times when we should explore a little.
Yes I agree - when playing, reading someone's text, we should follow its grammar, signs, tempo etc.
We all could see/imagine a different pictures while doing it , but text is text.
Texts are different too, some composers give to player more info, exact info, where and what and how to do it, some very little. In some styles/periods we naturally "expect" more freedom in some less..
But it is not my main point.
I am talking here mostly about creating of ORIGINAL music...
About maybe changing global idea regarding guitar activity from copying to creating original music...
like global idea of folks who do painting.
They certainly, like a guitarists start from learning tools of the trade, technique, they copy too, but their idea about their Art is mainly about self-expression, after some training (different people have different training time) they starting to do their own things. Not everyone becoming a famous or "professional" artist, but still most of them trying to do their own stuff.
Us, guitarists? Absolute majority are playing something created by composers from score (which is great activity, sure!) but never really venture to creating of their own music....
and even more... very often when student will come to teachers and for example instead of playing classical piece for exam playing his own, then he is mostly ridiculed and rejected.
I did ... when I was in music school many years ago...
I remember for one exam I supposed to play pieces from "Classical" period.
I created my own stuff in that style and played it, examiners really liked it. But then they asked me - "Who are composers?" - i Told them - me. They faces drastically changed and they gave me bad mark...
Later I recorded these pieces - and many people like them, yet in the school it\s been completely rejected...
And that is what I am talking about when i am saying about changing attitude...
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Re: How to change global attitude in our Art? from copying as an ultimate purpose - to creation and self -expression?

Post by lagartija » Wed Dec 27, 2017 4:17 pm

Andrei, that was very unfair of them to give you bad marks if your compositions were in the correct style and so well done that they wanted to know who the composer was. That shows even more command of the material than required. You have to know the correct performance for the piece of that era and what the musical language was at the time. Shame on them! :contrat:
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Re: How to change global attitude in our Art? from copying as an ultimate purpose - to creation and self -expression?

Post by sxedio » Wed Dec 27, 2017 4:44 pm

AndreiKrylov wrote:
Wed Dec 27, 2017 2:58 pm

and even more... very often when student will come to teachers and for example instead of playing classical piece for exam playing his own, then he is mostly ridiculed and rejected.
I did ... when I was in music school many years ago...
I remember for one exam I supposed to play pieces from "Classical" period.
I created my own stuff in that style and played it, examiners really liked it. But then they asked me - "Who are composers?" - i Told them - me. They faces drastically changed and they gave me bad mark...
Later I recorded these pieces - and many people like them, yet in the school it\s been completely rejected...
And that is what I am talking about when i am saying about changing attitude...
Quite often exams involve playing pieces from a set list. Even if that is not the case, then they are fairly specific about what you have to play, e.g. 1 early piece, one classical/romantic piece, one modern piece. It seems to me that you were breaking the rules of the exam.

I guess when you were studying there wasn't a lot of room for anything other than strict classical theory and/or performance study, if you were studying today in Europe or North America (possibly in other places too) you would find a variety of options that suit the creative contemporary composer.
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Re: How to change global attitude in our Art? from copying as an ultimate purpose - to creation and self -expression?

Post by MartinCogg » Thu Dec 28, 2017 1:41 am

I think sxedio speaks true about the current education...


Perhaps (some explanation for those unfortunate enough to have seen my other post before it was edited)
I should mention that the words 'painting' 'creativity' and 'self-expression', in close proximity, usually cause
a chimpanzee, with brush, paints, and a large sheet of paper, to appear in my mental imagery.


AndreiKrylov wrote:
Tue Dec 26, 2017 10:04 pm
MartinCogg wrote:
Mon Dec 25, 2017 10:35 pm
I don't know quite what you're on about Andrei... classical guitar activities, classical guitar education, classical music
education, global attitude to 'our' Art, technology, paint...
Does 'classical guitar activities' include me and my daily guitar practice at home?
Sure... you probably do some 'classical guitar activities' :)
But... one of the reasons why I asked my original question is that it seems now (according to all guitar educational/academic/press/festivals etc activities) attitude to originality/creativity and to new music production/performance is usually negative...
that is why we hear same music in concerts etc again and again again...
But..
everybody should be free to do what they wish (in music)
please play whatever you like to play etc.
It will be nice if global attitude will change, and creative part of our Art will be recognized at least as important as technical/sport like part...
Phew... I thought you were wanting me to change my global attitude - I agree that classical guitar concert
progammes seem all too often the same pieces over and over, but the repertoire we all have access to as players seems
pretty large to me... and certainly a great deal more has become easily accessible in recent years - though meself I'd
already built a pile of facsimiles - minkoff, tecla, British Library photocopies, etc. - before the internet appeared
with free access :?

Meanwhile, I'm sure there's plenty of new music being composed for classical guitar these days, and some of it appears on cd...
and sometimes I buy and listen

but today, I listened to a new cd (new to me) of Beethoven, played by Olga Pashchenko (Alpha201)
- absolutely fabulous!

I've not quite had enough of the 19th century yet, nor the 18th, nor the 17th, nor the 16th, and I don't completely
ignore the 20th (haven't really given attention to any 21st c. guitar scores) - as to composing the music for myself...
first, I'd have to be locked up in a room with a guitar and no access to any music scores (I've not much repertoire
stored complete in memory).

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Re: How to change global attitude in our Art? from copying as an ultimate purpose - to creation and self -expression?

Post by eno » Fri Dec 29, 2017 4:27 am

I think one of the ways that classical music differs from other musical styles is its high level of mastery, both in performance and composition. As opposed to other musical styles (and there is nothing wrong with those) the level of expected artistry and mastery in classical music is very high. The bar for a performer or a composer/composition to get into the realm of accomplished CG performers/composers/compositions is quite high, much higher in comparison to other musical styles. That is why it is very rare that the same person can both compose and perform CG at the level of mastery above that bar, very few people could do that. As an example, Leo Brouwer started composing at the mastery level only when he quit his performer's career. As the result, most people specialize - they either focus and strive to reach the mastery in performance and play music composed by someone else, or reach the mastery in composition but leave the performance of their compositions for someone else. There is still a lot of people playing and/or composing on CG at amateur level having fun expressing themselves musically, and many of them do both performance and composition, and this is great. But this activity belongs to a different realm - a realm of amateur musicians, and their performances, recordings and compositions will rarely ever cross the bar into the realm of masters. There is nothing wrong with this division into those realms of amateurs and masters, it's just the way it is. But I think this explains why performing and composing is a rare combination in the realm of classical music masters. And it also explains why they teach this way in schools. At the school you can take CG performance classes but the performance teachers will not care about your compositions because they are focused and want you to be focused on performance. You can separately take composition classes if you also want to study composition but again the composition teachers will not care about your performance. This kind of specialization makes a lot of sense, one needs to be very focused in order to achieve a certain level of mastery in any specific area.
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Re: How to change global attitude in our Art? from copying as an ultimate purpose - to creation and self -expression?

Post by Guero » Fri Dec 29, 2017 11:00 am

AndreiKrylov wrote:
Fri Dec 22, 2017 4:45 pm
Yet classical guitar culture seems still mainly evolving around repetition, copying and performance of small, limited number of (nice) pieces...
to me this sounds like a perfect explanation of classical music in general
AndreiKrylov wrote:
Fri Dec 22, 2017 4:45 pm
and not around Art where everybody expected to share their own music ideas, passions and thoughts...
nice explanation of Pop/Rock, Jazz, Blues, Metal, Punk... ;)

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Re: How to change global attitude in our Art? from copying as an ultimate purpose - to creation and self -expression?

Post by prawnheed » Fri Dec 29, 2017 11:52 am

Guero wrote:
Fri Dec 29, 2017 11:00 am
AndreiKrylov wrote:
Fri Dec 22, 2017 4:45 pm
Yet classical guitar culture seems still mainly evolving around repetition, copying and performance of small, limited number of (nice) pieces...
to me this sounds like a perfect explanation of classical music in general
AndreiKrylov wrote:
Fri Dec 22, 2017 4:45 pm
and not around Art where everybody expected to share their own music ideas, passions and thoughts...
nice explanation of Pop/Rock, Jazz, Blues, Metal, Punk... ;)
Exactly.

Classical music is classical, like classical architecture, literature etc. If it were more modern, it would no longer be classical.

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Re: How to change global attitude in our Art? from copying as an ultimate purpose - to creation and self -expression?

Post by AndreiKrylov » Fri Dec 29, 2017 1:55 pm

eno wrote:
Fri Dec 29, 2017 4:27 am
I think one of the ways that classical music differs from other musical styles is its high level of mastery, both in performance and composition. As opposed to other musical styles (and there is nothing wrong with those) the level of expected artistry and mastery in classical music is very high. The bar for a performer or a composer/composition to get into the realm of accomplished CG performers/composers/compositions is quite high, much higher in comparison to other musical styles. That is why it is very rare that the same person can both compose and perform CG at the level of mastery above that bar, very few people could do that. As an example, Leo Brouwer started composing at the mastery level only when he quit his performer's career. As the result, most people specialize - they either focus and strive to reach the mastery in performance and play music composed by someone else, or reach the mastery in composition but leave the performance of their compositions for someone else. There is still a lot of people playing and/or composing on CG at amateur level having fun expressing themselves musically, and many of them do both performance and composition, and this is great. But this activity belongs to a different realm - a realm of amateur musicians, and their performances, recordings and compositions will rarely ever cross the bar into the realm of masters. There is nothing wrong with this division into those realms of amateurs and masters, it's just the way it is. But I think this explains why performing and composing is a rare combination in the realm of classical music masters. And it also explains why they teach this way in schools. At the school you can take CG performance classes but the performance teachers will not care about your compositions because they are focused and want you to be focused on performance. You can separately take composition classes if you also want to study composition but again the composition teachers will not care about your performance. This kind of specialization makes a lot of sense, one needs to be very focused in order to achieve a certain level of mastery in any specific area.
Thanks for this explanation.

Creativity is just amateurish .
Education system is perfect.
Performers play new and new and different pieces.
Folks who has new ideas or approaches are just not professionals.

everything is fine as it is and nothing will change....
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Re: How to change global attitude in our Art? from copying as an ultimate purpose - to creation and self -expression?

Post by sxedio » Fri Dec 29, 2017 9:48 pm

eno wrote:
Fri Dec 29, 2017 4:27 am
I think one of the ways that classical music differs from other musical styles is its high level of mastery, both in performance and composition. As opposed to other musical styles (and there is nothing wrong with those) the level of expected artistry and mastery in classical music is very high. The bar for a performer or a composer/composition to get into the realm of accomplished CG performers/composers/compositions is quite high, much higher in comparison to other musical styles. That is why it is very rare that the same person can both compose and perform CG at the level of mastery above that bar, very few people could do that. As an example, Leo Brouwer started composing at the mastery level only when he quit his performer's career. As the result, most people specialize - they either focus and strive to reach the mastery in performance and play music composed by someone else, or reach the mastery in composition but leave the performance of their compositions for someone else. There is still a lot of people playing and/or composing on CG at amateur level having fun expressing themselves musically, and many of them do both performance and composition, and this is great. But this activity belongs to a different realm - a realm of amateur musicians, and their performances, recordings and compositions will rarely ever cross the bar into the realm of masters. There is nothing wrong with this division into those realms of amateurs and masters, it's just the way it is. But I think this explains why performing and composing is a rare combination in the realm of classical music masters. And it also explains why they teach this way in schools. At the school you can take CG performance classes but the performance teachers will not care about your compositions because they are focused and want you to be focused on performance. You can separately take composition classes if you also want to study composition but again the composition teachers will not care about your performance. This kind of specialization makes a lot of sense, one needs to be very focused in order to achieve a certain level of mastery in any specific area.
I couldn't disagree with you more. First of all, there is now higher education for jazz, and also for folk, and there are performers coming out of these courses with a high level of technical mastery/specialisation comparable to the classical conservatoire graduates. Then, I'd like to point out that ground breaking composers often have trouble finding performers willing to perform their works (for reasons of money and/or artistic differences). The Philip Glass ensemble included the composer himself, likewise the Michael Nyman band, and I'm sure if you look hard enough you'll find countless other examples. I think a number of contributors to this thread are presenting current music education as far more conservative and stuffy than it really is.
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Re: How to change global attitude in our Art? from copying as an ultimate purpose - to creation and self -expression?

Post by eno » Sat Dec 30, 2017 3:37 am

AndreiKrylov wrote:
Fri Dec 29, 2017 1:55 pm
Creativity is just amateurish .
Education system is perfect.
Performers play new and new and different pieces.
Folks who has new ideas or approaches are just not professionals.

everything is fine as it is and nothing will change....
That's not what I was saying, but anyway, creative people have always been in minoriy, our times are not much different. It's not a problem with music or education, it's just human nature. Yet musicians who are lacking creativity can still play well and enjoy music, not everyone meant to be a genius. But yes, situation in modern music is different compared to previous centuries when "classical" was a dominant style of music and the majority of musically talented and creative people would become classical performers and composers. In out times there are many other musical styles where talented people can get rewarded more quickly and abundantly so most of those talents don't become classical musicians any more. But still there is quite a few extraordinary and creative talents in the contemporary CG scene who are master performers and outstanding composers at the same time and who contributed a lot of non-conventional and creative compositions into the modern CG repertoire. Just to name a few: Leo Brouwer (a true genius IMHO), Marek Pasieczny, Johannes Moller. There are also a few amazing modern composers writing for CG, for example Takashi Yoshimatsu. Their works show that one can be truly creative, find new ideas and approaches even within the frames of traditional CG without any modern sound technology enhancements.
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Re: How to change global attitude in our Art? from copying as an ultimate purpose - to creation and self -expression?

Post by AndreiKrylov » Sat Dec 30, 2017 4:41 am

I've been offered to join USSR composers union back in 1987...
But been young, naive and non-compromising and considering this organisation just mainly bureaucratic musical hand of Party and Government, I rejected that offer... I was thinking that it will be soon another world which will care about music itself not about bureaucracy, positioning and labeling of the person...
how mistaken I was ... in a sense that there is no difference really between East and West and different ideology in this matter. It is just the same thing everywhere...
connections, positions, paybacks, labelling of the people, empty arrogance....
Yes I am not going to join that club.
Not interested , never been.
this club rejected with all my ideas and music and everything altogether...
but miraculously my music work is liked by listeners...
Thanks to listeners!!!!
I'd better go and do my work
just play and record what I feel and as I feel it.
I shared some of my ideas here
they've been rejected

"Traditional" approach will make guitar and making closer to martial arts rather than to painting.
Is it really a creative way?
in a sense that it is a way which will follow all rules and regulations and do creativity according to these rules and its frames - yes.
but it is martial art... not anything like painting...
This forum is a perfect example showing it...

OK
we all will do what we like to do.
I shared how I see and do it, so nobody could say that I kept it just for myself :)
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Re: How to change global attitude in our Art? from copying as an ultimate purpose - to creation and self -expression?

Post by lagartija » Sat Dec 30, 2017 2:07 pm

AndreiKrylov wrote:
Sat Dec 30, 2017 4:41 am
I've been offered to join USSR composers union back in 1987...
But been young, naive and non-compromising and considering this organisation just mainly bureaucratic musical hand of Party and Government, I rejected that offer... I was thinking that it will be soon another world which will care about music itself not about bureaucracy, positioning and labeling of the person...
The idealism of youth....
I too railed against the establishment and the rules... it all should be changed! What right did they have to decide if my work was worthy or not? :pascontent:
how mistaken I was ... in a sense that there is no difference really between East and West and different ideology in this matter. It is just the same thing everywhere...
connections, positions, paybacks, labelling of the people, empty arrogance....
The hierarchical nature of human beings and what they do or feel they must do to “get ahead” in whatever system they live in, no matter how perverse. The idealism of youth replaced with the increase in the experience of the realities of life. :-|
Yes I am not going to join that club.
Not interested , never been.
this club rejected with all my ideas and music and everything altogether...
but miraculously my music work is liked by listeners...
Thanks to listeners!!!!
I'd better go and do my work
just play and record what I feel and as I feel it.
I shared some of my ideas here
they've been rejected
At least you have found a way to reach others, and make best use of the technology at hand to reach an appreciative audience. :-D
But Andrei, please do not mistake the airing of views not in *complete* agreement with yours in this discussion as outright rejection...
Your words stand here in this thread as a valuable counterpoint to the other views. Think of this thread as a symphony of discussion...all voices make their point and counterpoint...just like a good piece by Bach. (Sorry..I’ve been working on a Bach Allemande recently. ;-) )
Someone reading it will see the different views presented and perhaps they will be inspired by your viewpoint to change things, should the opportunity for them to do so arise.

"Traditional" approach will make guitar and making closer to martial arts rather than to painting.
Is it really a creative way?
in a sense that it is a way which will follow all rules and regulations and do creativity according to these rules and its frames - yes.
but it is martial art... not anything like painting...
This forum is a perfect example showing it...
Perhaps, but not everyone thinks about this the same way, even on this forum where all views should be aired. :-)
OK
we all will do what we like to do.
I shared how I see and do it, so nobody could say that I kept it just for myself :)
And we are happy that you shared it with us.
When the sun shines, bask.
__/^^^^^o>
Classical Guitar forever!

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Re: How to change global attitude in our Art? from copying as an ultimate purpose - to creation and self -expression?

Post by kirolak » Sat Dec 30, 2017 5:06 pm

May I add my appreciation for this wonderful thread !

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Re: How to change global attitude in our Art? from copying as an ultimate purpose - to creation and self -expression?

Post by AndreiKrylov » Sat Dec 30, 2017 8:03 pm

Thanks for you comments, lagartija!
It is great that we all have different views!
I have no problem with it and do not expect that my views would be accepted by all, or even many...
as long as my views and others could coexist and confronting ideas could discussed - it is great!
But ... unfortunately in our human world usually one ideology dominates, sometimes in certain, sometimes in certain group, in certain location etc.
that is when I am talking about rejection...
Thankfully we have different ways to promote our ideas unlike it totalitarian societies where anything which not following the main ideology is shut down.
But sometimes it seems to me that "classical guitar" "establishment" :) want the same thing - to shut down or simply reject something which is not following it's standard views.
I could see it right here:
one could proclaim that people who do and see things differently "amateurish" and their work less or not valuable in comparison with "professionals" and "masters"...
eno wrote:
Sat Dec 30, 2017 3:37 am

That's not what I was saying, but anyway, creative people have always been in minoriy, our times are not much different. It's not a problem with music or education, it's just human nature. Yet musicians who are lacking creativity can still play well and enjoy music, not everyone meant to be a genius. But yes, situation in modern music is different compared to previous centuries when "classical" was a dominant style of music and the majority of musically talented and creative people would become classical performers and composers. In out times there are many other musical styles where talented people can get rewarded more quickly and abundantly so most of those talents don't become classical musicians any more. But still there is quite a few extraordinary and creative talents in the contemporary CG scene who are master performers and outstanding composers at the same time and who contributed a lot of non-conventional and creative compositions into the modern CG repertoire. Just to name a few: Leo Brouwer (a true genius IMHO), Marek Pasieczny, Johannes Moller. There are also a few amazing modern composers writing for CG, for example Takashi Yoshimatsu. Their works show that one can be truly creative, find new ideas and approaches even within the frames of traditional CG without any modern sound technology enhancements.
Yes I could agree with some points by eno...
But... he said:
"in previous centuries when "classical" was a dominant style of music and the majority of musically talented and creative people would become classical performers and composers."

"In our times there are many other musical styles where talented people can get rewarded more quickly and abundantly so most of those talents don't become classical musicians any more."

But did n't really not humans , but "modern" music itself drastically changed?
are you sure that "modern" "classical" music would as popular if you put in time "when "classical" was a dominant style of music"? Honestly I do not think so...
The structural construction of "modern" music and spiritual message are drastically changed?
Is music which you offered as examples are really containing the same message as a classical one?
and a classical music by itself consist from the periods which will hardly be able to understand and appreciate each other...isn't it?
But... most of old music was and could be understood by any folks, from any "class" of society while "modern" music in most cases demands special education explanation of its algorithms etc.
It is not that harmonic experience of the past which was parallel and comparable to other arts like paintings or sculpture etc. but the only comparable and compatible arts for modern music is probably abstract styles...
Does it really talking to person about happiness of love? About sadness of farewell? Friendship? whatever...
Its language seems do not correspond with general human psyche anymore..
unlike
"when "classical" was a dominant style of music and the majority of musically talented and creative people would become classical performers and composers."
In some way it reminds me a tale about blaming the mirror for the image that we could see in it...
isn't it us? isn't music changed lot more than the audience? isn't it "changed" music pushed away audience from itself?
isn't it really a standard way of events happening then "academia" dictates rules of the game under the pretext of "keeping and saving the "mastery" and in reality endlessly reproduce itself and naturally becoming more and more "technical " rather than "spiritual" in its essence?
It is natural process...isn't it?
Just placing the questions...:)
I'd better speak by music...Please listen my guitar at Spotify, Apple Music, Amazon, etc.

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