Songwriting

Theory and practice of composition and arranging for classical guitar, discussion of works in progress, etc.
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Composers' Workshop
Theory and practice of composition and arranging for classical guitar, discussion of works in progress, etc.

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Stephen Kenyon
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Re: Songwriting

Post by Stephen Kenyon » Fri Nov 10, 2017 4:54 pm

PeteJ wrote:
Fri Nov 10, 2017 1:01 pm
. Songwriters don't come any better than Schubert and he was big CG fan, as can be heard in some of his piano accompaniments. I thank that somewhere he comments that the only sound better than the guitar is two guitars, but I've never found the quote.
You are thinking of Chopin there but nobody has ever traced the quote so its probably apocryphal.
Schubert's connection to guitar is very slender as well, certainly not as strong as is often supposed.
Simon Ambridge Series 40 (2005)
Trevor Semple Series 88 (1992)
Louis Panormo (1838)
Alexander Batov Baroque Guitar (2013)

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sxedio
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Re: Songwriting

Post by sxedio » Fri Nov 10, 2017 7:27 pm

Stephen Kenyon wrote:
Fri Nov 10, 2017 4:54 pm
Schubert's connection to guitar is very slender as well, certainly not as strong as is often supposed.
His contemporaries definitely played the songs on guitar, as shown by manuscripts (Karl Scheit published Die Nacht from a contemporary manuscript, I believe now the whole manuscript is available on facsimilee and there is also a recording) but also by official contemporary arrangements e.g. by Diabelli.
(Gr) (En) (very little Fr)

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Stephen Kenyon
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Re: Songwriting

Post by Stephen Kenyon » Fri Nov 10, 2017 10:29 pm

sxedio wrote:
Fri Nov 10, 2017 7:27 pm
Stephen Kenyon wrote:
Fri Nov 10, 2017 4:54 pm
Schubert's connection to guitar is very slender as well, certainly not as strong as is often supposed.
His contemporaries definitely played the songs on guitar, as shown by manuscripts (Karl Scheit published Die Nacht from a contemporary manuscript, I believe now the whole manuscript is available on facsimilee and there is also a recording) but also by official contemporary arrangements e.g. by Diabelli.
Entirely correct. And as a youth he wrote a vocal trio with guitar, and added a cello part to a Matiegka trio and evidently owned a guitar as well; out of which thin material a whole range of further fantasies have at times been current. For the bi-centenary in 1997 I spent ages going over all this and was amazed to discover how few of the popular stories were supported by the evidence.
Simon Ambridge Series 40 (2005)
Trevor Semple Series 88 (1992)
Louis Panormo (1838)
Alexander Batov Baroque Guitar (2013)

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Re: Songwriting

Post by PeteJ » Sat Nov 11, 2017 1:06 pm

Oh. this is disappointing. I had the impression that Schubert was a serious fan of the instrument. Rumours and wishful thinking perhaps.

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Stephen Kenyon
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Re: Songwriting

Post by Stephen Kenyon » Sat Nov 11, 2017 4:59 pm

PeteJ wrote:
Sat Nov 11, 2017 1:06 pm
Oh. this is disappointing. I had the impression that Schubert was a serious fan of the instrument. Rumours and wishful thinking perhaps.
Sorry if big disappointment: there's an article in my website with all the issues discussed.
Simon Ambridge Series 40 (2005)
Trevor Semple Series 88 (1992)
Louis Panormo (1838)
Alexander Batov Baroque Guitar (2013)

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sxedio
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Re: Songwriting

Post by sxedio » Sat Nov 11, 2017 8:38 pm

Stephen Kenyon wrote:
Sat Nov 11, 2017 4:59 pm
Sorry if big disappointment: there's an article in my website with all the issues discussed.
Thanks for making the article public, interesting reading.
(Gr) (En) (very little Fr)

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Re: Songwriting

Post by PeteJ » Sun Nov 12, 2017 12:04 pm

I had visions of Schubert strumming guitar and singing in the bordellos of Vienna, but I shall have to revise my fantasy.

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Stephen Kenyon
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Re: Songwriting

Post by Stephen Kenyon » Sun Nov 12, 2017 9:20 pm

PeteJ wrote:
Sun Nov 12, 2017 12:04 pm
I had visions of Schubert strumming guitar and singing in the bordellos of Vienna, but I shall have to revise my fantasy.
I think you'll find his possibly singular visit to such an establishment had other activities involved and was so to speak instrumental in depriving us of his work very prematurely.
Simon Ambridge Series 40 (2005)
Trevor Semple Series 88 (1992)
Louis Panormo (1838)
Alexander Batov Baroque Guitar (2013)

PeteJ
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Re: Songwriting

Post by PeteJ » Mon Nov 13, 2017 12:27 pm

Singular visit? Was he not a regular? I must have picked up the wrong idea somewhere.

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lagartija
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Re: Songwriting

Post by lagartija » Mon Nov 13, 2017 1:30 pm

Back to the original idea of the thread....

As an example of “songs” written for voice and classical guitar, no one has mentioned Fernando Sor’s Seguidillas. They were popular little ditties at the time.
When the sun shines, bask.
__/^^^^^o>
Classical Guitar forever!

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Re: Songwriting

Post by PeteJ » Tue Nov 14, 2017 12:42 pm

Did anyone mention Benjamin Britten? Or all those South American sambas and bossas?

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sxedio
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Re: Songwriting

Post by sxedio » Sun Nov 19, 2017 8:13 pm

Stephen Kenyon wrote:
Sat Nov 11, 2017 4:59 pm
Sorry if big disappointment: there's an article in my website with all the issues discussed.
Hi Stephen. In case you find it relevant for future research: The Taruskin history of 19th century music has an early chapter on Schubert, you probably have similar sources in mind. In summary Taruskin notes that during his life, Schubert was publishing a lot for popular viennese genres such as Maennerchor while in private writing more 'serious' works. So if he could write for the guitar he probably would have, he was by no means a musical snob.
(Gr) (En) (very little Fr)

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Stephen Kenyon
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Re: Songwriting

Post by Stephen Kenyon » Sun Nov 19, 2017 8:45 pm

sxedio wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2017 8:13 pm
Stephen Kenyon wrote:
Sat Nov 11, 2017 4:59 pm
Sorry if big disappointment: there's an article in my website with all the issues discussed.
Hi Stephen. In case you find it relevant for future research: The Taruskin history of 19th century music has an early chapter on Schubert, you probably have similar sources in mind. In summary Taruskin notes that during his life, Schubert was publishing a lot for popular viennese genres such as Maennerchor while in private writing more 'serious' works. So if he could write for the guitar he probably would have, he was by no means a musical snob.
Well I don't know that source but one of the biggest arguments against is precisely that at a time when the guitar was hugely popular, if he'd had more than the most passing acquaintance he would surely have published more because he was famously short of cash. The guitar parts to the mens' voices pieces are deemed not to be his, and the arranged for guitar versions are normally described as so butchered they couldn't have been his, but could readily have been made by or for, for instance, Diabelli.
Simon Ambridge Series 40 (2005)
Trevor Semple Series 88 (1992)
Louis Panormo (1838)
Alexander Batov Baroque Guitar (2013)

PeteJ
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Re: Songwriting

Post by PeteJ » Wed Dec 06, 2017 2:45 pm

Darn it. Facts are so inconvenient.

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