Starting the quest for a solid wood classical

Adam
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Re: Starting the quest for a solid wood classical

Post by Adam » Wed Oct 19, 2016 2:14 pm

Gregory Gleason wrote:The C7 already has a solid top. Do you feel that solid sides/back will make a big difference? A lot of luthiers make laminated sides.
This is a logical dead end if I ever heard one.

robert e
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Re: Starting the quest for a solid wood classical

Post by robert e » Wed Oct 19, 2016 3:12 pm

Lovemyguitar wrote:
Gregory Gleason wrote:The C7 already has a solid top. Do you feel that solid sides/back will make a big difference? A lot of luthiers make laminated sides.
Please note that there is a huge difference between the wood used in a cheap(er) guitar that is called "laminated", which is essentially nothing more than plywood (that is, really cheap wood/plywood with a thin solid wood veneer to make it look nice), versus the wood used in a luthier-built guitar with "laminated" sides, the latter of which uses two pieces of high-grade solid tone-wood glued together presumably to increase stiffness. These are two totally separate types of guitar construction, with two very different qualities of wood, and should not be confused as being the same.
This may be true for the cheapest mass produced guitars, but it's otherwise misleading. It's my understanding that the laminates on, for example, Yamaha CGxxx guitars, are tone wood laminates specifically designed and produced for guitars, Yamaha and other manufacturers having experimented extensively with tone wood combinations, grain bias, etc. for decades, by many accounts with excellent results. Sure, these laminates do not use the finest woods available, and are made on a larger scale and thus produced in a different way than how a luthier would make sides for a bespoke instrument, but it's not like they're picking up the wood at a hardware store, either.

[Edit: note that I'm not addressing the relative sonic merits of solid vs laminate or luthier vs factory here, only clarifying the comments about how laminates are produced.]

Lovemyguitar
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Re: Starting the quest for a solid wood classical

Post by Lovemyguitar » Wed Oct 19, 2016 3:50 pm

^^Fair enough -- not all lower-cost guitars are created equally, as some are obviously better than others! My point was simply that there is (or can be) a very big difference between what a cheap-ish guitar refers to as "laminated" wood and what a luthier-built instrument refers to by the same name. I actually wish that luthiers would call it something else to avoid this confusion, because for them, "laminated" generally refers to the process rather than to the wood itself. Cheers!

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Gregory Gleason
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Re: Starting the quest for a solid wood classical

Post by Gregory Gleason » Wed Oct 19, 2016 7:30 pm

robert e wrote:
Lovemyguitar wrote:
Gregory Gleason wrote:The C7 already has a solid top. Do you feel that solid sides/back will make a big difference? A lot of luthiers make laminated sides.
Please note that there is a huge difference between the wood used in a cheap(er) guitar that is called "laminated", which is essentially nothing more than plywood (that is, really cheap wood/plywood with a thin solid wood veneer to make it look nice), versus the wood used in a luthier-built guitar with "laminated" sides, the latter of which uses two pieces of high-grade solid tone-wood glued together presumably to increase stiffness. These are two totally separate types of guitar construction, with two very different qualities of wood, and should not be confused as being the same.
This may be true for the cheapest mass produced guitars, but it's otherwise misleading. It's my understanding that the laminates on, for example, Yamaha CGxxx guitars, are tone wood laminates specifically designed and produced for guitars, Yamaha and other manufacturers having experimented extensively with tone wood combinations, grain bias, etc. for decades, by many accounts with excellent results. Sure, these laminates do not use the finest woods available, and are made on a larger scale and thus produced in a different way than how a luthier would make sides for a bespoke instrument, but it's not like they're picking up the wood at a hardware store, either.

[Edit: note that I'm not addressing the relative sonic merits of solid vs laminate or luthier vs factory here, only clarifying the comments about how laminates are produced.]
I had a CG171S and it sounded dead. Nothing I did could put out much sound. It was no better than an old korean no-name brand with all laminated construction.

Anyway, someone should probably just cut up a C7 to see what the sides look like.
1994 Kohno Special (spruce/Brazillian)
2002 Hill Munich (spruce/Indian Rosewood)
1999 Hill Madrid (cedar/Indian Rosewood)
1972 Ramirez 1a

bchi123
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Re: Starting the quest for a solid wood classical

Post by bchi123 » Fri Oct 21, 2016 5:30 am

I'd go for an used Alvarez Yairi. I have seen and played a CY116,117,and 135 and liked them all. I feel like they are really good in the $1k range set.
When words leave off, music begins. ~Heinrich Heine

simonm
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Re: Starting the quest for a solid wood classical

Post by simonm » Fri Oct 21, 2016 1:22 pm

Navarro. Should fall into the range if you shop around.

FJ25

Re: Starting the quest for a solid wood classical

Post by FJ25 » Fri Oct 21, 2016 4:42 pm

Anyone know if there any Navarro dealers in Europe?

simonm
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Re: Starting the quest for a solid wood classical

Post by simonm » Fri Oct 21, 2016 6:21 pm

La Sonanta in Belgium carries Navarro (Senior) flamenco guitars. I have never seen Navarro (Marlon) guitars for sale in Europe. I suspect that the reason is quiet simply that a small artisanal workshop simply does not produce a big enough supply to support a big eco-system of dealers.

blevinsjake
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Re: Starting the quest for a solid wood classical

Post by blevinsjake » Tue Oct 25, 2016 7:35 pm

Navarro.

I believe La Sonanta is his European dealer.

J

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Thura2017
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Re: Starting the quest for a solid wood classical

Post by Thura2017 » Thu Jun 22, 2017 6:14 am

bchi123 wrote:
Fri Oct 21, 2016 5:30 am
I'd go for an used Alvarez Yairi. I have seen and played a CY116,117,and 135 and liked them all. I feel like they are really good in the $1k range set.
How do you think of the tone of 117?
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bchi123
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Re: Starting the quest for a solid wood classical

Post by bchi123 » Fri Jun 23, 2017 12:57 pm

I really liked mine; it had a lot of projection as I was able to play cafes and other non classics guitar venues up to small-medium size without amplification. I feel like the guitar was voiced brighter than usual, but was able to be dolce if played that way. It had a more fundamental tone than like the sustaining cavernous type; and it recorded well.
When words leave off, music begins. ~Heinrich Heine

MessyTendon
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Re: Starting the quest for a solid wood classical

Post by MessyTendon » Sun Jun 25, 2017 3:16 am

If you go for an upper tiered factory guitar, the laminated back and sides actually have an advantage...Stiffness is a good thing if the top is voiced right.

The notion that solid backs and sides are superior is folklore. It really depends on the overall character in the wood. A lively back can rob sustain,, but too stiff and you can get other trade offs.

I cut up a Cordoba C5...not quite the level of the C7 but the woods were laminated quite weakly...that is to say wimpy white fiber wood with a veneer over it...actually two sheets of veneer in between the so called mahogany.

Laminated rosewood with actually hardwoods, would be nice and stiff...That's a good thing of done right. But that means you actually remove brace materials to facilitate the right balance between that and the top. The synergy between back and sides is greatly exaggerated.

Heck I destroyed a rather cheap guitar that I rather enjoyed the tone of...To my surprise...entirely laminated. I think part of the tone came from the rather large baseball bat one piece neck...no scarf joint.

The bottom line is forget about solid vs laminate and use your ears. Upper tiered laminated guitars often have comparable attention to detail in bracing, kerfing etc...The only difference is usually a 500-1000$ up charge, for the word "solid."

Rest assured hardwood laminations are pretty darn solid and often times better.

Soho
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Re: Starting the quest for a solid wood classical

Post by Soho » Tue Jul 11, 2017 10:09 am

I have a similar budget for a good mid range guitar and tried many brands for the last few month. I use to visit local music stores 2-3 times a week.
I would recommend to try Alhambra 9P and Amalio Burguet 2M.

Amalio Burguet has a very unique and addictive sound to my ears, I almost can visualize it. When I first time tried the Amalio Burguet 2M and 3M my expression was WOW, the sound was too sweet, almost pure nectar! Alhambra 9P is more neutral in terms of sound, but has an amazing playability and overall feeling (finishing, construction) from 9P was more appealing to me. But don't get me wrong, I like the sound of 9P a lot, it's deep and strong basses I like more on 9P, but sound of 2M/3M is like a bright exotic girl, that difficult to forget. :D

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eno
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Re: Starting the quest for a solid wood classical

Post by eno » Tue Jul 11, 2017 2:40 pm

Guitar stores nowadays a flooded with Cordobas and I played plenty of them including $2-3K range ones and never found any good sounding ones, they all sounded pretty dull to me. Even my cheap and all-laminate Takamine C128 sounds much better
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Arkheospruce
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Re: Starting the quest for a solid wood classical

Post by Arkheospruce » Thu Aug 24, 2017 9:56 pm

Burguet 3m or Picado 54 and if not expensive for you esteve 9c/b. All solid and seriously good sound. Which one is ; do you like it. Try all please. Good luck... :)

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