Crossover classical cutaway guitars.

amezcua
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Crossover classical cutaway guitars.

Postby amezcua » Sat Dec 24, 2016 4:54 pm

There are some new guitars appearing which are classical guitars wiith cutaways to help the transition from steel strings to nylon . The puzzle for me is that some have curved fretboards to lessen the shock for steel string players . How would that affect a player used to a flat fretboard ? Does the fretboard flatten out as it gets closer to the bridge ? That`s a supplementary question to clarify it for myself . The guitars I was mainly looking at were Camps guitars ,made in Spain . They have been ,i think, mainly Flamenco makers .

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Re: Crossover classical cutaway guitars.

Postby simonm » Sun Dec 25, 2016 9:38 am

Slightly curved fretboards on classical guitars are not unheard of. I doubt very much if an experienced player would be very concerned one way or the other. He/she might have a preference for one of the other but I am pretty sure it is a matter of habit more than anything else.

On this forum Camps are known as classical guitar builders and have a pretty good reputation. I believe all the artesanal Spanish builders do both classical and flamenco guitars.

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Re: Crossover classical cutaway guitars.

Postby tom0311 » Sun Dec 25, 2016 10:09 am

In England Camps seem to be making more of a name for themselves with their flamenco guitars. LGS stock a lot of camps flamenco guitars and apparently they sell very well. The classicals and crossovers are excellent.

Radiused fretboards are fairly common in crossovers now. If you're used to a flat fretboard it might take getting used to, but it's easier to get used to than switching from radiused to flat in my opinion.
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Re: Crossover classical cutaway guitars.

Postby OldPotter » Sun Dec 25, 2016 10:26 am

Cutaways are there for better access to the high frets, on both classical and other styles.

There are reports of radiused finger boards being used on classical guitars where the player either did not notice or felt that barres were easier. The radius used tends to be fairly flat. Where they are used, the saddle will also be radiused, so the fingerboard will have the same radius throughout. I haven't yet heard of any one making classicals with the compound radius used on some electrics. This does not seem to affect the right hand at all, when you think about it, with a flat saddle the tops of the strings are at odd heights anyway because of different string thickness. I make some of my saddles with a shallow radius to avoid buzzing on the "d" string, it doesn't seem to bother the right hand at all.

Something I have noticed with cutaway guitars is that the nut width is sometime much narrower to suit a steel string player, just have to take note.

I haven't seen a Camps guitar but there are a couple of members who have tried the classical models and liked them.
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Re: Crossover classical cutaway guitars.

Postby tom0311 » Sun Dec 25, 2016 11:36 am

OldPotter wrote:I haven't seen a Camps guitar but there are a couple of members who have tried the classical models and liked them.


I've got an m14 classical and it's fantastic. Seriously good guitars for the money. I've played loads of them and they've all been very good. Surprised they're not mentioned more often to be honest.
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Re: Crossover classical cutaway guitars.

Postby rojarosguitar » Sun Dec 25, 2016 12:15 pm

Radiused fingerbaords are not new at all to classical guitars. A friend of mine had a Hans Hermann Herb classical guitar with radiused fb in 1981 and quite likely it wasn't the first that existed ;-) . There can be quite complex radiused constructions in classical guitar. Some makers make a twisted radiused fb, so that the saddle bone is equally high on treble and bass side ('propeller' shape). For some people (like me) radiused fb faciliates the barrés, others prefer flat fb.

As to the cutaway, they help the access of the highest portion of the fretboard. Another answer to that issue are the elevated fretboards. I think cutaway is more of an aesthetical problem, because the acoustic changes in the guitar are very small through change of shape in that part of thebody.

Neither radiused fb nor cutaways are primarily intended as a help to steel string players to make the transition, IMHO.
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Re: Crossover classical cutaway guitars.

Postby MrSteve » Sun Dec 25, 2016 5:49 pm

I recently commissioned a guitar built by Chris Sobel, and I purposefully requested that the fretboard is radiused. It does make forming barres much easier. I don't think I would ever purchase another guitar without a radiused fretboard. When I transition to my other guitars, all which have standard flat fretboards, they are more difficult and less playable then my new sobel guitar.
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Re: Crossover classical cutaway guitars.

Postby simonm » Sun Dec 25, 2016 5:59 pm

rojarosguitar wrote:Radiused fingerbaords are not new at all to classical guitars. A friend of mine had a Hans Hermann Herb classical guitar with radiused fb in 1981 and quite likely it wasn't the first that existed ;-) . There can be quite complex radiused constructions in classical guitar. Some makers make a twisted radiused fb, so that the saddle bone is equally high on treble and bass side ('propeller' shape). For some people (like me) radiused fb faciliates the barrés, others prefer flat fb.

As to the cutaway, they help the access of the highest portion of the fretboard. Another answer to that issue are the elevated fretboards. I think cutaway is more of an aesthetical problem, because the acoustic changes in the guitar are very small through change of shape in that part of thebody.

Neither radiused fb nor cutaways are primarily intended as a help to steel string players to make the transition, IMHO.


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Re: Crossover classical cutaway guitars.

Postby frankoregan » Sun Jan 15, 2017 9:44 pm

Hi there

I've just joined the site and have a question regarding the disadvantages of using a crossover to learn classical guitar.
The reason I ask is that I picked up a Yamaha NTX1200R a few years ago for a ridiculously good price and intend to use this in my studies.
I'm aware that it may not be the best idea....but telling my other half that I need to buy another guitar may also not be the best idea.
Any thoughts (or a direction to posting this query elsewhere) would be greatly welcomed.

Frank

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Re: Crossover classical cutaway guitars.

Postby Laudiesdad69 » Mon Jan 16, 2017 1:31 am

Some of the techniques used in finger style and classical guitar work easier with more space between the strings. I had a Córdoba C9 Crossover and I got rid of it as the narrow neck was a hinderance. I'd say you need to convince the wife ( I don't know why guys worry about his, my wife doesn't mind when I show up with a new guitar, but then again she plays and she got a new one for Christmas) you really need a proper classical guitar.
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Re: Crossover classical cutaway guitars.

Postby Blondie » Mon Jan 16, 2017 9:46 am

frankoregan wrote:telling my other half that I need to buy another guitar may also not be the best idea.
Any thoughts (or a direction to posting this query elsewhere) would be greatly welcomed.


Find a more understanding other half?

Alternatively the best way to deal with these 'misunderstandings', I find, is to have lots of guitars so that your other half can't tell which is which and fails to notice when you acquire a new one :D

Back to your actual question though regarding the suitability of using your guitar to learn classical, I guess it depends on what your aspirations are. It will be fine if you are just dabbling & want to learn a few party pieces, but if you are serious about classical guitar it may hold you back in the long run.

Your guitar has a narrow neck & fretboard (48mm at nut), a bridge string spacing of 52mm, a narrow body, a curved fretboard and a 14 fret neck> body join. All of these are non-standard when it comes to a standard factory classical and so if you get used to playing on yours then want to trade up later to a proper classical then you might suddenly find things awkward due to the wider neck fretboard and everything else.

More important though is the affect on your learning and the sound you get.
Your guitar has some ' instant comfort' advantages of course - like higher fret access, that curved fretboard will be nice for barres (and as I'm sure someone might point out, some experienced players actually commission guitars from luthiers that incorporate one or more of the features mentioned. However, this muddies the waters for a beginner IMO).

Unless you have very small hands, a narrow fretboard & string spacing at both nut and bridge can be very restrictive for the technique of both hands (your bridge especially - its about 6-8mm narrower, that's huge) which could affect the development of good technique (eg powerful slurs and a deep free stroke). Finally, your guitar was designed mainly to be plugged in, and the acoustic response (tone, volume, projection) you get will be far less satisfying than a proper classical as your technique develops, it might even affect your desire to take things things further.

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Re: Crossover classical cutaway guitars.

Postby bear » Mon Jan 16, 2017 1:16 pm

I'd put the hybrids in the same category as this;
bad idea.png
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Re: Crossover classical cutaway guitars.

Postby Lovemyguitar » Mon Jan 16, 2017 4:58 pm

Hi Frank! I agree with Blondie: buy a "real" classical guitar as soon as possible if you are serious about learning it. It doesn't have to be expensive, to begin with, but you really should get the feel for a proper classical from the start. Best of luck!

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Re: Crossover classical cutaway guitars.

Postby jdart3000 » Mon Jan 16, 2017 9:46 pm

bear wrote:I'd put the hybrids in the same category as this;
bad idea.png


HAH! Only when you submerge them. :lol:
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Re: Crossover classical cutaway guitars.

Postby frankoregan » Mon Jan 16, 2017 9:47 pm

Thanks so much Blondie/Bear/Lovemyguitar for your feedback and answers - really really helpful.
I half suspected what your response was going to be. Ah well better to know now rather than struggle with an instrument just because I have it.
The Yamaha is immaculate, so I expect that I'll get a good price for it.

If you were to in my position what instrument would you go for? I'm limiting myself at about €500/€600 (on the expected proceeds of the above sale).

Regarding my other half, she's pretty good to be fair. I bought a pretty expensive bike there last year after much deliberation. (That's my technique, deliberate and hum and haw until she says...."will you just buy the bloody thing!")


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