Antonio Picado 62 vs. Ramirez 4NE vs. Esteve 11 vs. Alhambra 11p Cedar

Arkheospruce
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Antonio Picado 62 vs. Ramirez 4NE vs. Esteve 11 vs. Alhambra 11p Cedar

Post by Arkheospruce » Wed May 17, 2017 7:38 pm

Hi.. I will buy a new cedar top guitar and need your help. I like traditional spanish sound, very deep basses and not thiny trebles. I'm thinking Picado 62 , Ramirez 4ne, Esteve adalid 11 or Alhambra 11p.
I can't trying picado 62 and adalid 11 now. Try ramirez 4ne and Alhambra 11p. They are beautiful guitars but it was very short trying. 4 NE was high action, hard tension strings, 11P was medium action, medium tension strings. Sounds were different. I read that Adalid 11 has carbon fibre bracing and not traditional but loudly clarity sound l'm not sure.. So,
Can you compare that guitars: construction, workmanship, bracing style,measurements, sound, loudness clarity, sustain, playability etc.
I'm waiting your opinions for buying..
Best regards... :bye:

nmshu1
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Re: Antonio Picado 62 vs. Ramirez 4NE vs. Esteve 11 vs. Alhambra 11p Cedar

Post by nmshu1 » Wed May 17, 2017 8:11 pm

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Jacek A. Rochacki
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Re: Antonio Picado 62 vs. Ramirez 4NE vs. Esteve 11 vs. Alhambra 11p Cedar

Post by Jacek A. Rochacki » Wed May 17, 2017 8:28 pm

Picado 62 is built by a single master luthier (usualy it is Angel Genis or Carlos Prat, recently I was informed that one of the models no. 60 was built by another luthier - Eric Soler Casanovas) in the small Picado workshop where there are 5 or 4 luthiers working.

Without any criticism I just remember that very good Ramirez 4NE is outsourced and build in some large workshop ot factory (Alhambra ? Raimundo ?) like other Ramirez estudio guitars. Alhambra is surely very good, and it is a factory instrument I think. Sorry, I have no experience with Esteve Adalid.

In my modest experience PIcado guitars are something unusual in their price category in today's world. Small workshop and their top models are built by a single luthier, like in case of high model 1A from Jose Ramirez. If I remember well, our Friend @Gary Macleod has been playing Picado model 62 and was happy with it. I hope that some other people including these who play Picado guitars soon contribute to this thread.
Antonio Picado, model 60, 2015, Cedar/IRW. Scale 640 mm.
Kenny Hill, model Madrid, 2002, No. 2019, Cedar/IRW. Scale 650 mm.

MessyTendon
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Re: Antonio Picado 62 vs. Ramirez 4NE vs. Esteve 11 vs. Alhambra 11p Cedar

Post by MessyTendon » Wed May 17, 2017 10:55 pm

I have a Picado 2AF Cypress flamenco model. I got it used for a reasonable price. While I complain about it a lot...I play a lot of other factory model guitars in the same budget or higher and always find something favorable about the Picado.

Honestly you'd be better off with the Model 60...Consider the "choice tonewoods" A bragging rights upcharge. The rosewood might be Brazilian or as the web-site says "amazonion,madagascar" etc...You get a figured back, and possibly a top with a bit more silking.

Then the Model 60...more or less is built in the same high quality way...look in the guitar, see the braces and tentelones...lot's of care.

I'm not saying the 62 is bad, I haven't personally heard it. I enjoy my Picado Cypress, it's got some sustain and okay basses. But this was not the top model, however the bracing and lightness of the instrument makes for big percussive, flamenco voiced instrument. But then comparing it a vintage Ramirez 1A...I do indeed like the Ramirez, but I also paid 1,000$ for my guitar.

I think the Model 60 would be a better buy, it puts you in the highest quality factory guitar category, at a price that isn't close enough to single luthier pricing, where it will leaving you wondering what you could have gotten.

Brazilian or figured amazon wood is more or less an aesthetic these days...Boring old Indian Rosewood, has greater consistency and less prone to crack than Brazilian woods.

Hope you join the Picado club, they are nice guitars. Rumor has it the old Taurus guitars were built in the Picado factory, so that is entirely another option, buying a vintage upper end Taurus guitar for a lot less money :)

I think it's important to leave tonewood bias when selecting a guitar. Look for neck comfort, and generally agreeable tonalities. One can get a real boomy canon of a guitar and realize just how fatiguing it is.

Good luck, subversively speaking...Picado,Picado,Picado...Potato, Tomato.

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Jacek A. Rochacki
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Re: Antonio Picado 62 vs. Ramirez 4NE vs. Esteve 11 vs. Alhambra 11p Cedar

Post by Jacek A. Rochacki » Wed May 17, 2017 11:15 pm

@MessyTendon: you simply read my thoughts :)

The Picado model 60 is their highest model made with Indian Rosewood; when I was choosing my Picado I could easily afford other model, but following advice of one of my Friends who owns and plays two Picado guitars: model 60 and more expensive Concierto and likes his model 60 a lot, I went for model 60 and I do not regret it. Model 60 recently is described as belonging to category "Estudio" guitars, but couple of years ago it was advertised as belonging to the concert category. When I asked David Picado about it, he answered me simply that it is a matter of convention and model 60 is, as I said above, the highest model with IRW.

About Picado, Taurus and Ramirez: in his young days señor Antonio Picado was working in Taurus in Barcelona. Taurus has been building some Estudio models for Jose Ramirez and señor Antonio Picado has been building them. Later señor Picado opened his own workshop in the town of Berga that exists up to today.
Antonio Picado, model 60, 2015, Cedar/IRW. Scale 640 mm.
Kenny Hill, model Madrid, 2002, No. 2019, Cedar/IRW. Scale 650 mm.

Laudiesdad69
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Re: Antonio Picado 62 vs. Ramirez 4NE vs. Esteve 11 vs. Alhambra 11p Cedar

Post by Laudiesdad69 » Thu May 18, 2017 9:36 pm

To the OP. If you like traditional Spanish sound, you might not get it with a carbon fiber braced instrument. And Messy is right, Ramirez doesn't make e 4NE, it is farmed out o another workshop. I'd say you couldn't go wrong with a nice, USED 4NE. And I know the Ramirez guitars come set up with fairly high action (from experience). But it's nothing that a luthier can't remedy quickly with a proper set up.
I used to have a Ramirez George Harrison. I traded it in on some other gear. The action was set at 12/64th inch which is approximately 4.8 mm at the low E at the 12th fret when I bought itI lowered the string height at the no and the saddle. I lowered the saddle and the action was set at 8/64th (about 3.2mm low E and 2.5 mm high E). I it plays wonderfully and no buzz. There was nothing wrong with the guitar, I just have other Ramirez guitars, and George was the one that I never used. It's hanging up at my friend's music store for sale at $1750. You should be able to get just about any Ramirez you want (estudio) used for under $2000.

Podobin
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Re: Antonio Picado 62 vs. Ramirez 4NE vs. Esteve 11 vs. Alhambra 11p Cedar

Post by Podobin » Fri May 19, 2017 12:55 am

:chitarrista: :chitarrista: Get the Picado. Even a Picado 54 will be superior to the Ramirez. Not even a question. Even cheaper if you order direct from Spain. There is a guy on Reverb that had a new Picado 53 spruce for a great price..btw I have no association with the seller, I just window shop for guitars alot...and dream ... and play ....

Philosopherguy
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Re: Antonio Picado 62 vs. Ramirez 4NE vs. Esteve 11 vs. Alhambra 11p Cedar

Post by Philosopherguy » Fri May 19, 2017 1:40 am

I love my 4NE. For the money, you don't find too many nicer guitars then the Ramirez 4NE. I have played everything on your list except the Picado. I doubt you would go wrong with any of them, but I happen to love the sound of a Ramirez. I am biased to those bell like trebles and nice deep growl in the bass that the Ramirez gives. They are very warm and balanced guitars too. Plenty of players on Delcamp own 4NE's and no one that owns one gives them bad reviews.

As far as construction goes, they are all good. You likely won't have any problems with any of them in that regard. They are all "factory" guitars. So, you are getting guitars that are built, at this level, in small batches, or maybe some parts even individually done. Someone has mentioned the Picado is hand made by one person, but these kinds of definitions are slippery in a factory setting. Is everything hand made by one guy? I doubt it. I would imagine these guitars are all fairly equal in terms of construction.

Play them all, if you can, and decide. Remember that Ramirez sets their instruments up quite high from the factory. It's easier for customers to bring action down and to lower the strings to suit individual players than to raise them up. Every instrument is customizable in this manner. Most shops that you buy from will adjust that kind of thing.

Martin
*************************************************************
2013 Ramirez 130 Anos - Spruce
2013 Ramirez 4NE - Cedar
1998 Dean Harrington - Spruce
1977 Kuniharu Nobe - Spruce
1971 Yamaha GC3 - Spruce

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Jacek A. Rochacki
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Re: Antonio Picado 62 vs. Ramirez 4NE vs. Esteve 11 vs. Alhambra 11p Cedar

Post by Jacek A. Rochacki » Fri May 19, 2017 8:07 am

I agree that all three guitars that we talk about here may be described as "factory guitars" if we understand by this term guitars built in a workshop where more then one luthier work. If so - what about Jose Ramirez model 1A ? does it also fall into category of "factory guitars" ?
Some higher models of Picado were signed - beside what we see at the paper label - by their builder - CP (Carlos Prat) or AG (Angel Genis) on wooden element inside the box. This is exactly how Ramirez 1A were signed by their builders.
Picado2008.jpg
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Antonio Picado, model 60, 2015, Cedar/IRW. Scale 640 mm.
Kenny Hill, model Madrid, 2002, No. 2019, Cedar/IRW. Scale 650 mm.

Philosopherguy
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Re: Antonio Picado 62 vs. Ramirez 4NE vs. Esteve 11 vs. Alhambra 11p Cedar

Post by Philosopherguy » Fri May 19, 2017 4:24 pm

Jacek A. Rochacki wrote:
Fri May 19, 2017 8:07 am
I agree that all three guitars that we talk about here may be described as "factory guitars" if we understand by this term guitars built in a workshop where more then one luthier work. If so - what about Jose Ramirez model 1A ? does it also fall into category of "factory guitars" ?
Some higher models of Picado were signed - beside what we see at the paper label - by their builder - CP (Carlos Prat) or AG (Angel Genis) on wooden element inside the box. This is exactly how Ramirez 1A were signed by their builders.
Picado2008.jpg
In a strict definition, of course the Ramirez 1A would be considered a "factory" guitar. I am not of the camp that believes factory is all that derogatory. Put it this way, I have had numerous luthier instruments come and go and I still have my Ramirez guitars. So, I think that speaks to something. Just because one person built it doesn't mean it's better.

My understanding is the 4NE's are built in very small runs of 6-12 instruments at a time and done with care. It's not like these "factories" are just assembly lines where a robot builds the guitar. They can take as much care as needed to finish the instrument correctly. I'm sure at this level, they are all voiced to some extent by one of the "seasoned" people.

How do you know the guy at the factory isn't a better builder than <name any famous luthier here>? You don't know that. My argument is that the factory guys likely have way more experience building guitars than single luthiers. In a factory, you see many more soundboards/necks/backs and sides per year then any single luthier.

Martin
*************************************************************
2013 Ramirez 130 Anos - Spruce
2013 Ramirez 4NE - Cedar
1998 Dean Harrington - Spruce
1977 Kuniharu Nobe - Spruce
1971 Yamaha GC3 - Spruce

Arkheospruce
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Re: Antonio Picado 62 vs. Ramirez 4NE vs. Esteve 11 vs. Alhambra 11p Cedar

Post by Arkheospruce » Tue Jun 20, 2017 9:26 pm

Hi everybody.. Thanks for all msgs and helpful opinions.. I'm sorry for that i can't write to you answer msgs. I was very ill in last 4 weeks; my language is not good and to writing was hard when i was ill.. :)
Especially thanks to;
nmshu1, Jacek, MessyTendon, Laudiesdad69, Podobin, Philosopherguy and other who is interested person of this topic..
So i will write about my guitar choice .. :merci: for all interestings... Best regards.

Thuy Tran
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Re: Antonio Picado 62 vs. Ramirez 4NE vs. Esteve 11 vs. Alhambra 11p Cedar

Post by Thuy Tran » Sat Jun 24, 2017 11:00 am

Hi everybody ,
I'm a new one in the forum . May I have a question to all of you and hope yr knowledge and expertise will hepl ?
Why the picado concierto c1 is less desirable than the model 60 ? Is it because of the price or playability ? And can people expect a better sound from C1 since it is much more expensive ?

Thuy Tran
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Re: Antonio Picado 62 vs. Ramirez 4NE vs. Esteve 11 vs. Alhambra 11p Cedar

Post by Thuy Tran » Sat Jun 24, 2017 11:12 am

Hi again ,
And just a few words about the ramirez 4NE . I own one 2013 new from the 12th fret Toronto and I'm quite happy with its typical spanish sound , the only concern is to keep the anbient humidity to RHrange 40 -60 as in VN it's abt 70 and more on rainy days

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Jacek A. Rochacki
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Re: Antonio Picado 62 vs. Ramirez 4NE vs. Esteve 11 vs. Alhambra 11p Cedar

Post by Jacek A. Rochacki » Sat Jun 24, 2017 1:32 pm

Thuy Tran wrote:
Sat Jun 24, 2017 11:00 am
Hi everybody ,
I'm a new one in the forum . May I have a question to all of you and hope yr knowledge and expertise will hepl ?
Why the picado concierto c1 is less desirable than the model 60 ? Is it because of the price or playability ? And can people expect a better sound from C1 since it is much more expensive ?
The subject of Picado models is as you know discussed here
viewtopic.php?f=107&t=100300&start=30

I would not say that the model Concierto is less desirable; it depends on individual preferences of a player. It is not (IMO) price or playability, it is the character of the instrument. Many of us play C1 with real pleasure, other play model 60. It is, I repeat, individual question. Please, compare sound of mod. 60 played by Maestro Eliseo Fresquet Serret and the link is in His post in my thread on my Picado model 60. And at the web pages of Antonio Picado we may listen to sounds of model Concierto played by Jony Mosco.
Antonio Picado, model 60, 2015, Cedar/IRW. Scale 640 mm.
Kenny Hill, model Madrid, 2002, No. 2019, Cedar/IRW. Scale 650 mm.

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souldier
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Re: Antonio Picado 62 vs. Ramirez 4NE vs. Esteve 11 vs. Alhambra 11p Cedar

Post by souldier » Sun Jun 25, 2017 1:11 pm

What is your budget and where is your location?
"Success grants its rewards to a few, but is the dream of the multitudes.
Excellence is available to all, but is accepted only by a few." - Christopher Parkening

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