Antonio Picado 62 vs. Ramirez 4NE vs. Esteve 11 vs. Alhambra 11p Cedar

Thuy Tran
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Re: Antonio Picado 62 vs. Ramirez 4NE vs. Esteve 11 vs. Alhambra 11p Cedar

Post by Thuy Tran » Sun Jun 25, 2017 4:08 pm

Thank you Jacek . I hv just listened to both maestro Eliseo and Jonny Mosco . If I'm not mistaken the C1 Jonny Mosco played is a spruce top and I really want to know whether it's a double top or a traditional solid one . Base on the sound can we judge which one it is ?
BTW Maestro Eliseo played on many different guitars AP60 , Renato Belluci , Camps ...His performance was so versatile and at very high level . I think he can make any guitar sings the way he wants

Thuy Tran
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Re: Antonio Picado 62 vs. Ramirez 4NE vs. Esteve 11 vs. Alhambra 11p Cedar

Post by Thuy Tran » Sun Jun 25, 2017 4:18 pm

Hi souldier ,
I'm from Vietnam . My budget is very humble but craziness sometimes made me exceed my limits

Mr.Rain
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Re: Antonio Picado 62 vs. Ramirez 4NE vs. Esteve 11 vs. Alhambra 11p Cedar

Post by Mr.Rain » Sun Jun 25, 2017 8:28 pm

Thuy Tran wrote:
Sun Jun 25, 2017 4:08 pm
Thank you Jacek . I hv just listened to both maestro Eliseo and Jonny Mosco . If I'm not mistaken the C1 Jonny Mosco played is a spruce top and I really want to know whether it's a double top or a traditional solid one ....

Double Top= Double Tapa

Tapa refers ins this case to the back, so you could call it "double back" is a high quality lamination on cedar over the normal back(check contreras double tops for more info as that is the idea), ths alters the tone of the guitar as the back becomes a mostly "dead back"(still provides tone but less than a live back), it will improve projection (IMHO is noticeable by listeners)...

Comparing a regular 62 and a Concierto DT the bass is tighter on the DT (this may change as time passes but after 4 months of break in that is my current opinion :lol: )

Thuy Tran
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Re: Antonio Picado 62 vs. Ramirez 4NE vs. Esteve 11 vs. Alhambra 11p Cedar

Post by Thuy Tran » Mon Jun 26, 2017 5:17 am

Tks Mr Rain for enlightening my lantern . What do you mean exactely by " bass is tighter" ?
I rcvd answer from Jonny Mosco himself and the guitar he played is indeed a doblo tapa
IMHO it could be a good mach for arrangenents of David Moreno like Los Sitios de Zaragosa , Aires Moriscos ...

Mr.Rain
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Re: Antonio Picado 62 vs. Ramirez 4NE vs. Esteve 11 vs. Alhambra 11p Cedar

Post by Mr.Rain » Mon Jun 26, 2017 9:35 am

The bass is tighter when new(way too dry and shiny),will need time to "open up" (become fuller) probably due to the double back making the guitar initially stiffer than a normal back, essentially the break in period can be quite long/ "a pain in the arse", so bear that in mind...

Speaking with the guys from Picado, they commented sometimes 2 guitars of the same model sound different when new, some are more open when new others take longer to open up,so that is part of the process and a matter of luck, but again they do not build to get the best sound out of the workbench..(this guitars have to be played a lot...)

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Jacek A. Rochacki
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Re: Antonio Picado 62 vs. Ramirez 4NE vs. Esteve 11 vs. Alhambra 11p Cedar

Post by Jacek A. Rochacki » Mon Jun 26, 2017 11:38 am

Mr.Rain wrote:
Mon Jun 26, 2017 9:35 am
The bass is tighter when new(way too dry and shiny),will need time to "open up" (become fuller) probably due to the double back making the guitar initially stiffer than a normal back, essentially the break in period can be quite long/ "a pain in the arse", so bear that in mind...

Speaking with the guys from Picado, they commented sometimes 2 guitars of the same model sound different when new, some are more open when new others take longer to open up,so that is part of the process and a matter of luck, but again they do not build to get the best sound out of the workbench..(this guitars have to be played a lot...)
I think that every classical guitar regardless being constructed with doble tapa ot not need time to open up. Sometime it takes long time. sometime shorter; some say tha the cedar tops are opening faster then spruce; well my Picado with cedar tp that sounded beautiful from the very first day after a year sounds even more beautiful. So it opened up. Or - more precisely - is in a process of opening. I wonder how it will sound in, say, 10 years.

And the fact that two guitars of the same model sound different do not refers just to the Picado guitars. I believe it is a kind of universal situation. Let us take as example famous Jose Ramirez 1A - some are different then others.
Antonio Picado, model 60, 2015, Cedar/IRW. Scale 640 mm.

Mr.Rain
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Re: Antonio Picado 62 vs. Ramirez 4NE vs. Esteve 11 vs. Alhambra 11p Cedar

Post by Mr.Rain » Mon Jun 26, 2017 11:59 am

Of course All guitars have to break in, but Spruce tops change a lot after/during it (in cedar I could see changes but not as radical as spruce tops)

What I meant is that Angel (from Picado) was saying to me that Doble Tapas, tend to be stiffer sounding at the beginning, this can make them sound more treble than the normal backs when new... (comparing two similar guitars)

Thuy Tran
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Re: Antonio Picado 62 vs. Ramirez 4NE vs. Esteve 11 vs. Alhambra 11p Cedar

Post by Thuy Tran » Tue Jun 27, 2017 12:21 pm

Hello Jacek , Mr Rain and Doralikesmath ,
Tks to your explanations and comments I hv made up my mind . I'll go this time for an AP mod62 spruce with doblo tapas and neck reinforced with carbon fiber .The reason of my choice is because I already had two cedar top and now want to try a spruce
Actually , latest up to date info from Angel are
Mod 60 spruce/cedar top back n sides IRW
Mod 62 spruce/cedar top back n sides Madagascar RW
C1 concierto spruce/ cedar top back n sides Brazilian RW with CITES
Rosette of mod62 is for two models 62 n C1
Rosette of C1 is only for C1
Neck C1 reinforced with carbon mast , 60 & 62 not
What you guys said are totally correct . The price level refers chiefly to the material used to make the guitar and not at any extent to the quality of the sound supposed to be standardized at picado luthier level
So ,
At the production , with a good selection and ...luck one may come across a mod60 sounding better than a C1
Which is unfortunately not my case since for a trip and stay in europe from my country I most likely have to pay double the price of a 62

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keithwwk
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Re: Antonio Picado 62 vs. Ramirez 4NE vs. Esteve 11 vs. Alhambra 11p Cedar

Post by keithwwk » Tue Jun 27, 2017 3:20 pm

Thuy Tran wrote:
Tue Jun 27, 2017 12:21 pm
Hello Jacek , Mr Rain and Doralikesmath ,
Tks to your explanations and comments I hv made up my mind . I'll go this time for an AP mod62 spruce with doblo tapas and neck reinforced with carbon fiber .The reason of my choice is because I already had two cedar top and now want to try a spruce
Actually , latest up to date info from Angel are
Mod 60 spruce/cedar top back n sides IRW
Mod 62 spruce/cedar top back n sides Madagascar RW
C1 concierto spruce/ cedar top back n sides Brazilian RW with CITES
Rosette of mod62 is for two models 62 n C1
Rosette of C1 is only for C1
Neck C1 reinforced with carbon mast , 60 & 62 not
What you guys said are totally correct . The price level refers chiefly to the material used to make the guitar and not at any extent to the quality of the sound supposed to be standardized at picado luthier level
So ,
At the production , with a good selection and ...luck one may come across a mod60 sounding better than a C1
Which is unfortunately not my case since for a trip and stay in europe from my country I most likely have to pay double the price of a 62
Good Choice. Surely you will be very happy with the 62 Spruce :bravo:
Antonio Picado Model 60 Spruce 2017
M.Sakurai No.5 Cedar 1976
Yamaha G225

Mr.Rain
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Re: Antonio Picado 62 vs. Ramirez 4NE vs. Esteve 11 vs. Alhambra 11p Cedar

Post by Mr.Rain » Tue Jun 27, 2017 4:51 pm

Thuy Tran,

the 62 can be as good as the C1 (i had both :mrgreen: i like better the 62 rosette ).
The difference will be on the fan, i think Angel uses the fleta alike parten on the 62/60 and a different one in the concierto (to get more trebles..)

The other difference is the carbon reinforcement, that allows a thinner neck on the concierto if you want to ( I prefer thin necks...)

Consider also macacauba(similar to amazon rosewood)for the backs is similar to BRW and no cites needed...

Thuy Tran
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Re: Antonio Picado 62 vs. Ramirez 4NE vs. Esteve 11 vs. Alhambra 11p Cedar

Post by Thuy Tran » Wed Jun 28, 2017 11:52 am

Hi Mr Rain ,
Nice coincidence . I reject the C1 just because I found the rosette not matching with the clear and yellowish colour of the spruce . I have big hands and hv no concern abt the shape of the neck although I found the sturdy U shape neck of ryoji matsuoka guitars so clodhopping.I will consider macacauba n tks for the tip

rikroberts
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Re: Antonio Picado 62 vs. Ramirez 4NE vs. Esteve 11 vs. Alhambra 11p Cedar

Post by rikroberts » Thu Aug 03, 2017 12:39 am

I had a Picado 62 recently, I found it a bit metallic perhaps? It was my first double top so I don't know if I am just not used to them. However, the guy I sold it to really loved it.

Mr.Rain
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Re: Antonio Picado 62 vs. Ramirez 4NE vs. Esteve 11 vs. Alhambra 11p Cedar

Post by Mr.Rain » Sun Aug 06, 2017 10:26 pm

rikroberts wrote:
Thu Aug 03, 2017 12:39 am
I had a Picado 62 recently, I found it a bit metallic perhaps? It was my first double top so I don't know if I am just not used to them. However, the guy I sold it to really loved it.
Picado ships the 62 with Savarez 540j (or used to), next time try putting son EJ44c, you'll see how the metallic sound goes away :P (have been there before)

zw359
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Re: Antonio Picado 62 vs. Ramirez 4NE vs. Esteve 11 vs. Alhambra 11p Cedar

Post by zw359 » Mon Aug 07, 2017 3:21 am

My spruce model 62 is also on the way. Thanks for the tip on string. I ordered the guitar from picado workshop and is the similar price (Including shipping and tax:-() as the Ramirez 4ne sold in Australia. The 4ne l tried sounds metallic too and the tuning machine is stuck somehow. With the great help from Jacek and other posts, I ordered picado 62. Hope it arrives undamaged.

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Jacek A. Rochacki
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Re: Antonio Picado 62 vs. Ramirez 4NE vs. Esteve 11 vs. Alhambra 11p Cedar

Post by Jacek A. Rochacki » Mon Aug 07, 2017 8:09 am

- it is real pleasure to be of a little help :) please, keep us informed on development of the action of acquiring your Picado guitar, and later, when you will be having the instrument in your hands, please, tell us how the reality meet expectations.
Antonio Picado, model 60, 2015, Cedar/IRW. Scale 640 mm.

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