Cheap and Good Full Solid?

ddray
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Re: Cheap and Good Full Solid?

Post by ddray » Tue Jul 11, 2017 2:20 am

llch wrote:
Tue Jul 11, 2017 1:03 am
Wow, now that's an interesting question! Would a top solid guitar be superior towards a full solid guitar? I think like what most people has advised, if there's no guarantee return I wouldn't be buying it anytime soon... But it does trigger an interesting topic - Segovia had a solid top? Now that's something to trigger my GAS! =D
Well yes he did, but he played (as far as I know) all-solid high-end instruments. The point that these people were making was that with inexpensive guitars "all-solid" might not be that much of an advantage. But by all means get a solid top; and in the lower price bracket it will be easier to find a good solid cedar top than spruce.

llch
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Re: Cheap and Good Full Solid?

Post by llch » Tue Jul 11, 2017 2:42 am

ddray wrote:
Tue Jul 11, 2017 2:20 am
llch wrote:
Tue Jul 11, 2017 1:03 am
Wow, now that's an interesting question! Would a top solid guitar be superior towards a full solid guitar? I think like what most people has advised, if there's no guarantee return I wouldn't be buying it anytime soon... But it does trigger an interesting topic - Segovia had a solid top? Now that's something to trigger my GAS! =D
Well yes he did, but he played (as far as I know) all-solid high-end instruments. The point that these people were making was that with inexpensive guitars "all-solid" might not be that much of an advantage. But by all means get a solid top; and in the lower price bracket it will be easier to find a good solid cedar top than spruce.
That's interesting, but I guess discussion in other thread such as link below:
viewtopic.php?t=75014
- General rule of thumb is full solid is better than top solid?
However there's always exception in the higher end? A top solid with laminate sides can actually be better than full solid?
Mind blowing

ddray
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Re: Cheap and Good Full Solid?

Post by ddray » Tue Jul 11, 2017 2:51 am

llch wrote:
Tue Jul 11, 2017 2:42 am
- General rule of thumb is full solid is better than top solid?
However there's always exception in the higher end? A top solid with laminate sides can actually be better than full solid?
Mind blowing
The high-end guitars are all-solid or have very carefully done laminating work. The point that some of the commenters were making was that when it comes to the more inexpensive all-solid guitars, there might not be much of advantage if any at all to solid construction. I actually haven't played enough different guitars to make a judgement on that. But a solid top is always preferable, and you can get inexpensive guitars with pretty good solid cedar tops.
The best thing to do is shop around in person and find what sounds and plays best for you.

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Beowulf
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Re: Cheap and Good Full Solid?

Post by Beowulf » Tue Jul 11, 2017 2:57 am

Try out Yamaha if they are available in your area.
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llch
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Re: Cheap and Good Full Solid?

Post by llch » Tue Jul 11, 2017 6:48 am

Beowulf wrote:
Tue Jul 11, 2017 2:57 am
Try out Yamaha if they are available in your area.
In all honesty I never had good impressions from Yamaha... I trust them for piano, flute and others but not guitar! Reason was that when I tried my Alhambra 5P against similar priced Yamaha guitars, it is definitely a few pegs beneath it...

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Re: Cheap and Good Full Solid?

Post by llch » Tue Jul 11, 2017 7:10 am

I think I might settle with a... Chinese guitar! Saw a good price for Martinez guitars, and so far this forum seem to suggest that it is quite a respectable brand by Kenny Hill. Will settle for a spruce single top J-III (instead of the double top advertised by Johannes Moller). Not sure if there's going to be a big difference...

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eno
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Re: Cheap and Good Full Solid?

Post by eno » Tue Jul 11, 2017 2:46 pm

It actually might be a good choice. I never played Martinez but sometime ago contemplated on buying one and listened to plenty of soundclips. They sound quite good although not anything outstanding. I actually didn't like the sound of the double top model that Johannes plays, it sounds a little nasal, the single top models sounded better to my ear.
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andreas777
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Re: Cheap and Good Full Solid?

Post by andreas777 » Tue Jul 11, 2017 6:29 pm

In my opinion you should always buy a guitar with a solid top, but the attribute "solid" doesn't guarantee that is is of high quality. There are solid tops of cheap guitars that sound like plywood, so it's always recommended to test the sound of a guitar. In the low price segments I agree that as a rule of thumb a cedar top is better (and louder) compared to a spruce top.

The sides and back are far less important to the sound. A solid back is the best choice of course, but a good laminated back is almost as good, and often no difference can be heard. I would try to avoid a plywood back with a veneer that looks nice but sounds bad. You can try to hear the sound quality with your ears, but I recommend to use your hands too. Just try to feel the resonance of a guitar by pulling the strings and then putting your hand on different parts of the surface.

Btw, one of my 20 guitars is a Martinez with spruce top that I plan to sell, but a shipping to Malaysia would make no sense imho.
19 classical guitars, 1 digital piano - no TV, no radio

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Guitar Slim Jr.
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Re: Cheap and Good Full Solid?

Post by Guitar Slim Jr. » Wed Jul 12, 2017 5:44 am

There's nothing speical about a solid top. The fact is, the only guitars that DON'T have solid tops are really cheap trash. Any modestly priced Cordoba, Yamaha or Takamine is going to have a solid top. If you pay over $299 US for a guitar and it's NOT a solid top, you got ripped off bad. Yamaha's cheapest solid top used to start around $150, but that was decades ago...

llch
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Re: Cheap and Good Full Solid?

Post by llch » Wed Jul 12, 2017 2:28 pm

andreas777 wrote:
Tue Jul 11, 2017 6:29 pm
In my opinion you should always buy a guitar with a solid top, but the attribute "solid" doesn't guarantee that is is of high quality. There are solid tops of cheap guitars that sound like plywood, so it's always recommended to test the sound of a guitar. In the low price segments I agree that as a rule of thumb a cedar top is better (and louder) compared to a spruce top.

The sides and back are far less important to the sound. A solid back is the best choice of course, but a good laminated back is almost as good, and often no difference can be heard. I would try to avoid a plywood back with a veneer that looks nice but sounds bad. You can try to hear the sound quality with your ears, but I recommend to use your hands too. Just try to feel the resonance of a guitar by pulling the strings and then putting your hand on different parts of the surface.

Btw, one of my 20 guitars is a Martinez with spruce top that I plan to sell, but a shipping to Malaysia would make no sense imho.
So, a top solid is important but not really a full solid then? Top solid is the minimum requirement... That's weird because most advertisements seem to show how great a full solid is!

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andreas777
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Re: Cheap and Good Full Solid?

Post by andreas777 » Wed Jul 12, 2017 4:39 pm

llch wrote:
Wed Jul 12, 2017 2:28 pm
So, a top solid is important but not really a full solid then? Top solid is the minimum requirement... That's weird because most advertisements seem to show how great a full solid is!
Yes, a good laminated back is (almost) as good as a solid back. Just think about a very expensive Smallman guitar with a laminated back. As already mentioned, there are different types of laminated wood for the back. If you laminate thin solid layers of wood together to one piece, then the quality can be very good. The back becomes stiffer, the sound properties of the guitar changes, and there is a lower risk for cracks. But if you only take a layer of plywood and glue a nice looking veneer on it, then the quality is low. Both types are not sold and for both the term "laminated" is often used.

There is another aspect to consider: Assume all sports cars have a red color, and all city cars are blue. Then this would generate the impression that a red color makes a car faster than a blue color, even if the color has nothing to do with the horse power of the motor. If expensive guitars have a rosewood back and cheap guitars have a mahogany back, or expensive guitars have (almost) always a solid back and cheap guitars a laminated back, then this generates the same impression even if most of the differences in quality are caused by other factors.
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llch
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Re: Cheap and Good Full Solid?

Post by llch » Thu Jul 13, 2017 5:29 am

I had tried to surf on the internet for some info on this... came across an interesting article about Torres, link as below:
https://www.guitarsalon.com/blog/?p=4056

Quote, "...but those who heard it accepted its maker’s contention – confirmed by modern physicists – that only the top of a guitar is of real importance in determining the character of its sound"

Confirms once again solid top is the most important part!

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Beowulf
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Re: Cheap and Good Full Solid?

Post by Beowulf » Thu Jul 13, 2017 10:25 pm

Not to mention the bracing pattern and shape of the braces, the shape of the guitar body, the depth of the body...but those are other subjects. The material of the back and sides also influences the player's experience of communication with the instrument.
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Thura2017
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Re: Cheap and Good Full Solid?

Post by Thura2017 » Fri Jul 14, 2017 7:30 am

llch wrote:
Sat Jul 08, 2017 2:51 pm
I've picked up guitar playing again recently with my 5P... It leaves me wanting, as it doesn't resonate fully. I've been wanting to move to a full solid of course, but again who doesn't? However, as usual, price is always the main barrier. So to summarize - full solid, but expensive. Yet the easy way out seems to be... get a Chinese guitar! Of course there are plenty of threads in here that talks about Guo, Aiersi and Martinez brands particularly, but has anyone tried out Laidelio (莱德里奥)? It seems to be making a lot of big claims, which of course I do not believe, but what I'm trying to look for would be a good full solid guitar at a cheaper price... Any comments?
I have a L Luthier Signature 08 model, AAA solid spruce top with AAA rosewood back and sides which is from Malaysia. The current price may be around 1500USD. I think it is at least on par with my Picado 60. :chitarrista:
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llch
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Re: Cheap and Good Full Solid?

Post by llch » Fri Jul 14, 2017 7:42 am

Thura2017 wrote:
Fri Jul 14, 2017 7:30 am
I have a L Luthier Signature 08 model, AAA solid spruce top with AAA rosewood back and sides which is from Malaysia. The current price may be around 1500USD. I think it is at least on par with my Picado 60. :chitarrista:
Impressive! I assume your Picado 60 comes to around 2500 USD? I've heard quite a bit about L Luthier. Will definitely try to drop by one day to look at it!

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