CITES for guitar with Rosewood export permit

lawcch
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CITES for guitar with Rosewood export permit

Post by lawcch » Thu Aug 03, 2017 8:20 am

Hi everyone

I am not sure if any members had problems buying guitars from Japan, USA, EU countries with effect from 2 Jan 2017, all dealers or seller musical instruments required to obtain export permit to sell their guitars with Indian or Brazilian rosewood to overseas buyers.
Here was one of the Japanese guitar dealer wrote to me via email;

It was possible to purchase these guitars till January 1st 2017.
but the contents of the Washington convention has changed in January 2nd 2017.
It is impossible to export the one which made by rosewood(back and side)

If we would export the guitar,we would had to get the permit sheet.
It will take so long time and cost.
So our company has decided to prohibit the export of the one.

The only way to get the one is to pick them up to come to JAPAN directly.
Or rely on to pick them up to your friend who live in JAPAN.

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GeoffB
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Re: CITES for guitar with Rosewood export permit

Post by GeoffB » Thu Aug 03, 2017 11:11 am

Hi lawcch, you may find this topic of interest.
Classical Guitar Forum.

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Sharkbait
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Re: CITES for guitar with Rosewood export permit

Post by Sharkbait » Thu Aug 03, 2017 2:28 pm

The dealer may be confused as to what is required.

Before 2 Jan 2017, only Brazilian rosewood was CITES-controlled, and it was (and still is) in Appendix I, which has very stringent requirements for import/export.

After 2 Jan 2017, all rosewoods become CITES-controlled. However, other than Brazilian which remains in Appendix I, all the other rosewoods are in Appendix II. These Appendix II's do require some import/export licence if there is a commercial sale (ie the dealer selling to ordinary buyers). However, it's quite easy to get such licences. They only require some information to be filled in on a simple form, and a nominal fee to be paid. The requirements for Appendix II licences are far less onerous than those for Appendix I licenses.

I believe for Appendix I, the dealer has to have evidence/proof that the Brazilian rosewood was acquired prior to a certain date (in 1972 if I recall correctly - oops, found references that it should be 1992), and then apply for special export documents (in the US it's a Protected Plant Permit, Re-Export Certificate and maybe a photosanitary certificate), the cost of which is quite expensive. And in the US, the Appendix I's need to go through designated CITES ports.

A dealer in the US that I was working with to buy my spruce/IRW guitar from was initially confused and thought that he would need to meet the Appendix I high requirements, which he was not prepared to do (too much paperwork and also too expensive). It was only after I explained further (I did a lot of CITES research) that he clarified with Wildlife & Fisheries and found out the Appendix II obligations were much more manageable.

You may also try explaining this to your Japanese dealer, if you are comfortable doing so in Japanese.
Last edited by Sharkbait on Thu Aug 03, 2017 4:08 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Beowulf
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Re: CITES for guitar with Rosewood export permit

Post by Beowulf » Thu Aug 03, 2017 2:36 pm

Yamaha exports guitars containing Madagascar or Indian rosewood with the appropriate CITES certificates. It does not and cannot export guitars containing Brazilian rosewood.
1971 Yamaha GC-10

lawcch
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Re: CITES for guitar with Rosewood export permit

Post by lawcch » Fri Aug 04, 2017 12:00 am

Hi
Thanks for the inputs contribution from members and also from moderator, GeoffB.
There are still Japanese guitars dealers sell their guitars with BRW back/ side to overseas buyers without permit.
last 2 weeks, I did bought a vintage Yamaha GC7M model guitar from Japan with Hondarus Mahogany wood for neck and solid Indian Rosewood on back and side.
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Last edited by lawcch on Sat Aug 05, 2017 2:45 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Beowulf
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Re: CITES for guitar with Rosewood export permit

Post by Beowulf » Sat Aug 05, 2017 2:00 am

Good luck...if one containing restricted woods gets checked carefully, it will be impounded and you will never see it again.
1971 Yamaha GC-10

lawcch
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Re: CITES for guitar with Rosewood export permit

Post by lawcch » Sat Aug 05, 2017 2:47 am

Beowulf wrote:
Sat Aug 05, 2017 2:00 am
Good luck...if one containing restricted woods gets checked carefully, it will be impounded and you will never see it again.
So far, the Custom Officer/ Forestry Officer in my country never make any query / complaints about the guitar with rosewood or anything about CITES.
The officer ask me to pay for VAT or GST 6% tax to Custom dept. That all they asked from me.

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Beowulf
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Re: CITES for guitar with Rosewood export permit

Post by Beowulf » Sun Aug 06, 2017 2:05 am

lawcch wrote:
Sat Aug 05, 2017 2:47 am
Beowulf wrote:
Sat Aug 05, 2017 2:00 am
Good luck...if one containing restricted woods gets checked carefully, it will be impounded and you will never see it again.
So far, the Custom Officer/ Forestry Officer in my country never make any query / complaints about the guitar with rosewood or anything about CITES.
The officer ask me to pay for VAT or GST 6% tax to Custom dept. That all they asked from me.
Great! Enjoy your guitar.
1971 Yamaha GC-10

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zavaletas
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Re: CITES for guitar with Rosewood export permit

Post by zavaletas » Sat Sep 23, 2017 5:14 pm

As a dealer to import or export guitars with woods that require CITES licenses I need licenses from both US Fish and Wildlife and the Department of Agriculture. As others have noted, as of Jan 2, all species of rosewood were listed on CITES appendix II, (Brazilian has been on Appendix 1 since 1992), and now require a CITES license to import or export. While USFW says these can be obtained readily, experience so far suggests that this isn't the whole story. I have a guitar coming from Spain with CITES (it was returned to Spain because the permit was missing a signature), a month later it is coming back, and has been detained for inspection-- estimate wait 3-4 months. With Brazilian rosewood, the huddles to export are steeper. Currently, I have an antique guitar made in the 1930s heading to Japan. We declared it might have (we weren't certain) a bridge of Brazilian rosewood. USFW wanted to have independent verification of the age of the guitar-- the date label wasn't acceptable, they wanted the above mentioned proof of legal importation documents and history of ownership. Verification of age took me to the Tree Ring Laboratory and the University of Arizona, who in collaboration with the world expert in dating musical instruments in England, were able to show that the guitar top was made with woods that predate the date on the label by 40 years, they also suggested that the bridge might not be made of Brazilian rosewood. I found a luthier with a Ph.D. in chemistry to run diagnostic tests on a tiny sample taken from under the saddle, and was able to determine that the bridge was not Brazilian rosewood. This process took nearly 5 months, but did end with a CITES permit being issued.

James
Zavaletas La Casa de Guitarras
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Re: CITES for guitar with Rosewood export permit

Post by Philosopherguy » Sat Sep 23, 2017 5:41 pm

zavaletas wrote:
Sat Sep 23, 2017 5:14 pm
As a dealer to import or export guitars with woods that require CITES licenses I need licenses from both US Fish and Wildlife and the Department of Agriculture. As others have noted, as of Jan 2, all species of rosewood were listed on CITES appendix II, (Brazilian has been on Appendix 1 since 1992), and now require a CITES license to import or export. While USFW says these can be obtained readily, experience so far suggests that this isn't the whole story. I have a guitar coming from Spain with CITES (it was returned to Spain because the permit was missing a signature), a month later it is coming back, and has been detained for inspection-- estimate wait 3-4 months. With Brazilian rosewood, the huddles to export are steeper. Currently, I have an antique guitar made in the 1930s heading to Japan. We declared it might have (we weren't certain) a bridge of Brazilian rosewood. USFW wanted to have independent verification of the age of the guitar-- the date label wasn't acceptable, they wanted the above mentioned proof of legal importation documents and history of ownership. Verification of age took me to the Tree Ring Laboratory and the University of Arizona, who in collaboration with the world expert in dating musical instruments in England, were able to show that the guitar top was made with woods that predate the date on the label by 40 years, they also suggested that the bridge might not be made of Brazilian rosewood. I found a luthier with a Ph.D. in chemistry to run diagnostic tests on a tiny sample taken from under the saddle, and was able to determine that the bridge was not Brazilian rosewood. This process took nearly 5 months, but did end with a CITES permit being issued.

James
Zavaletas La Casa de Guitarras
I find this all completely ridiculous. The small amount of wood that guitars use is not responsible for mass deforestation. CITES should have taken account of this. It was always the people who wanted furniture and other large things made of these woods that have caused the bulk of the damage, along with endless logging to clear land for agricultural purposes and other economic pursuits.

Governments with these special interests groups of eco-warriors have become the gadflies of our time. People are determined to try and legislate morality and ethics on us. What about those countries that don't enforce CITES at all? The western world always pays the price because we actually, for the most part, follow these ludicrous rules. I many countries these laws aren't worth the paper they were written on.

Martin
*************************************************************
2013 Ramirez 130 Anos - Spruce
2013 Ramirez 4NE - Cedar
1998 Dean Harrington - Spruce
1977 Kuniharu Nobe - Spruce
1971 Yamaha GC3 - Spruce

Jose Marques
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Re: CITES for guitar with Rosewood export permit

Post by Jose Marques » Sat Sep 23, 2017 5:58 pm

soon the best way to sell this guitars will be the buyer of the seller flies to meet each other and without paperwork... every as guitar player can move with one instrument without problems, as far as i know them, if the buyer comes to visit the luthier and we he will be back for his country i believe that no problem will appear.
Or the luthier goes visit the guitar player.
in maybe one year ebony will be in CITES as well and the we must provide 2 declarations ;)
I'm a Luthier living in Bury st Edmunds UK

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Beowulf
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Re: CITES for guitar with Rosewood export permit

Post by Beowulf » Sat Sep 23, 2017 7:20 pm

Below are the Canadian requirements for CITES permits (not all countries have the same requirements) Note for example that importing items from Appendix II does not require an import permit:

Table 1: Summary table - Permits. The table below shows permit requirements for importing or exporting according to the 3 Appendices.

General Info Permits Permits / Canada
Appendix I Species are rare or endangered because of international trade. International trade is generally prohibited. However, trade may be possible for captive-bred or artificially reproduced specimens and in such cases as scientific research and Pre-Convention specimens.

For every transaction, the following are required:

a CITES import permit issued by the importing country;
a CITES export permit issued by the exporting country.

Generally, it is best to first obtain the import permit.


Specimens to be imported into Canada must be accompanied by:

a Canadian CITES import permit;
a CITES export permit issued by the exporting country.

Specimens to be exported from Canada must be accompanied by:

a Canadian CITES export permit that will be issued once the relevant CITES import permit issued by the Management Authority of the importing country is received.

Appendix II Species are not currently rare or endangered but could become so if trade is not regulated. International trade is possible, controlled by permits.

Specimens must be accompanied by:

a CITES export permit issued by the exporting country.



Specimens to be imported into Canada must be accompanied by:

a CITES export permit issued by the exporting country.

Specimens to be exported from Canada must be accompanied by:

a Canadian CITES export permit.

Appendix III Species are not necessarily endangered but are managed within the listing nation. International trade is possible, controlled by permits.

Specimens must be accompanied by:

a CITES export permit issued by the exporting nation if exported from a listing nation,

OR

a certificate of origin or a re-export certificate if exported from another nation.



Specimens to be imported into Canada must be accompanied by:

a CITES export permit issued by the exporting country if the specimen is from a listing nation,

OR

a CITES export permit, a CITES certificate of origin or a CITES re-export certificate if the specimen is from another nation.

Specimens to be exported from Canada must be accompanied by:

a CITES export permit.

Date modified:
2017-07-04
1971 Yamaha GC-10

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zavaletas
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Re: CITES for guitar with Rosewood export permit

Post by zavaletas » Wed Oct 18, 2017 4:02 am

My pet peeve with respect to CITES and Lacey is not with the intent of these laws, but with the underlying politics that have caused them to be applied the way they are. In short, the backstory seems to be that Chinese competition has hurt the furniture and flooring industries in the US, but if the US were to impose protective tariffs-- we would run afoul of the World Trade Organization. As long as CITES and Lacey are applied uniformly-- then if it happens to protect our furniture and flooring industries, no foul. See http://www.hrpub.org/journals/article_info.php?aid=3672
James, Zavaleta's La Casa de Guitarras

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Beowulf
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Re: CITES for guitar with Rosewood export permit

Post by Beowulf » Wed Oct 18, 2017 4:14 pm

zavaletas wrote:
Wed Oct 18, 2017 4:02 am
My pet peeve with respect to CITES and Lacey is not with the intent of these laws, but with the underlying politics that have caused them to be applied the way they are. In short, the backstory seems to be that Chinese competition has hurt the furniture and flooring industries in the US, but if the US were to impose protective tariffs-- we would run afoul of the World Trade Organization. As long as CITES and Lacey are applied uniformly-- then if it happens to protect our furniture and flooring industries, no foul. See http://www.hrpub.org/journals/article_info.php?aid=3672
Although politics do play a role, it is not so much in the way the laws are applied, it is in the way the laws are written. Once the law has been written, the agencies, courts, etc., must apply the letter of the law. As is frequently the case in income tax laws, individuals get caught in nets designed to catch "big fish", and cannot get out of the trap because the law is not differentiated sufficiently to allow dispensation.

The Gibson story is a good example: Gibson followed all the requirements when importing Indian rosewood, however India had not followed its own legal standards when it approved the wood for export. The wood was confiscated under US court ruling. Clerical error in India or corrupt officials with hands held out for baksheesh...who knows? Gibson would have had to study Indian law and refuse purchase in order to exercise "due care". That is a very tall order even for a large business, let alone an individual luthier or guitar owner. Now, let's suppose that the export mistake was not discovered and Gibson used the wood. Imagine the nightmare for an owner of a guitar made with that "illegal" wood: an export permit is applied for in order to sell the guitar to a buyer in Canada...the error in the original export is discovered and the guitar is confiscated. :desole:
1971 Yamaha GC-10

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