Looking for information on an old Jose Ramirez guitar

cmcd-usc

Looking for information on an old Jose Ramirez guitar

Post by cmcd-usc » Fri Jan 31, 2014 7:49 pm

Hello. I recently spotted an add for an older model Jose Ramirez guitar for sale in a local craigslist ad (link: http://columbia.craigslist.org/msg/4279681592.html), and I am trying to find out more information about the guitar. As you can see from the ad, the owner doesn't really have much additional information on the guitar except that it has a cedar top, plays well and is in decent condition. We have emailed back and forth a couple of times and he has sent me some additional photos; the digit obscured by the string after Concepcion Jeronima is a "No. 2" and the full number at the bottom of the label is 228-12-17. There is no secondary white label showing a model, manufacture year and serial number.

The Ramirez Web site contains a catalog of the labels used since 1967, and the label matches one that is described as only being used since 2003. The guitar and the label both look to have significant age on them, so I suspect that the label might've been previously used prior to 1967 before the company started archiving what labels they used and when. Additionally, the headstock doesn't appear in their headstock catalog, presumably because of the age of the instrument.

Does anyone have any information on what model this is, what the back and sides are made of, when it was made, and a ballpark range of how much the instrument is worth? Thanks in advance for any insight you could offer.

Chris

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Erik Zurcher
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Re: Looking for information on an old Jose Ramirez guitar

Post by Erik Zurcher » Fri Jan 31, 2014 10:04 pm

The headstock does not look like any Ramirez guitar I have ever seen. You are right about the label: Ramirez used it for a brief time, but without the second label, I would not buy it. Why are you considering buying it?
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cmcd-usc

Re: Looking for information on an old Jose Ramirez guitar

Post by cmcd-usc » Fri Jan 31, 2014 10:30 pm

To be honest, I was just somewhat intrigued by the guitar because it's unusual to see either quality classical instruments at all or older classical instruments more specifically in my area. In Columbia where I live, the overwhelming majority of the inventory in local stores is steel-string, and what few classicals are sold here are of the Ibanez/Fender (usually hybrid) mass-production variety; Dream Guitars in Asheville or Maple Street in Atlanta are the closest classical guitar retailers that have a varied inventory, and they're both a couple hundred miles away. I always kind of keep an eye out for unusual instruments (for this neck of the woods, anyway) and enjoy learning about instruments I haven't seen before.

Long story short, I don't know if I will seriously look at buying it. But if I can learn more about the instrument, I thought it might be worth taking a closer look at it.
Last edited by cmcd-usc on Fri Jan 31, 2014 10:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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petermc61
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Re: Looking for information on an old Jose Ramirez guitar

Post by petermc61 » Fri Jan 31, 2014 10:31 pm

I would just say be wary. If I was contemplating this I would also look at typical Ramirez rosettes over the years by searching the web.

cmcd-usc

Re: Looking for information on an old Jose Ramirez guitar

Post by cmcd-usc » Fri Jan 31, 2014 10:37 pm

I would add that I have sent an email to the manufacturer but have not heard anything back as yet. It appears from the Jose Ramirez Web site that the company's institutional memory gets fuzzy pre-1967, so contacting them may be a long shot.

SusanGRas

Re: Looking for information on an old Jose Ramirez guitar

Post by SusanGRas » Sat Feb 01, 2014 2:20 am

This is a guitar I own. Purchased on the auction site because it was not too expensive and I always wanted one of those George Harrison Ramirez studio guitars but they were too expensive. This is the model they modeled that GH guitar after. The seller was an older man that lived near a swap meet my mom happened to be going to that Sunday so we arranged for her to pick it up. The gentleman told me that his daughter purchased it as a teen in the early 1960s from the Ramirez shop. The daughter had died so he did not have a need to keep the guitar any longer. Unfortunately it had a repaired crack under the bridge that was not shown and I felt bad to return so I have kept thinking someday I might restore but restoration is expensive especially when a crack was glued. The back and sides are mahogany that do not look like the mahogany in your photo but I have seen mahogany like the one in your photo. Yes, the headstock is different.

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Re: Looking for information on an old Jose Ramirez guitar

Post by David Norton » Sat Feb 01, 2014 3:41 am

cmcd-usc wrote:Hello. I recently spotted an add for an older model Jose Ramirez guitar for sale in a local craigslist ad (link: http://columbia.craigslist.org/msg/4279681592.html), and I am trying to find out more information about the guitar. As you can see from the ad, the owner doesn't really have much additional information on the guitar except that it has a cedar top, plays well and is in decent condition. We have emailed back and forth a couple of times and he has sent me some additional photos; the digit obscured by the string after Concepcion Jeronima is a "No. 2" and the full number at the bottom of the label is 228-12-17. There is no secondary white label showing a model, manufacture year and serial number.
Chris
It's a relabeled Valencia factory guitar. Ramirez bought many of these from the 1960s onward and sold them to student and tourists who simply wanted to have "a Ramirez guitar". Rosettes, headstocks, everything varied year to year. The 228-12-17 is their phone number (note the "To" in front of the number, = telefono). Some of these guitars are quite nice, some are awful. It's a shot in the dark. I had a girlfriend in college who owned one; it was pretty decent, but clearly not on par with a 1a model.

Ramirez was far from the only top-name luthierie to do this, most all the Big Name builders in Spain did/do the same. Here in the USA it's done as well: look at Tom Prisloe's "Pavan" series, or even better, the Kenny Hill "New World" series.
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SusanGRas

Re: Looking for information on an old Jose Ramirez guitar

Post by SusanGRas » Sat Feb 01, 2014 4:15 am

And yes, as David says, I knew this was not made in the Ramirez shop but was an outsourced product. Mine plays and sounds nice but needs a refinish. I do not play it very often so I must not like it that much.

cmcd-usc

Re: Looking for information on an old Jose Ramirez guitar

Post by cmcd-usc » Sat Feb 01, 2014 3:46 pm

David, thanks for the information. That makes sense given that there's no secondary label indicating year, model and serial number as is apparently customary for Ramirez-made instruments. I had assumed the number was a telephone number but thought that and the address might be germane to pinning down a manufacture date, as I understood that Ramirez changed its facility location from time to time over the years.

At any rate, I will probably pass on making an appointment to see/play the instrument. Thanks to those of you who took the time to respond.

Chris

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Re: Looking for information on an old Jose Ramirez guitar

Post by Sabicasfan » Mon Nov 06, 2017 7:55 pm

Hello, in trying to identify my guitar, I did come across a bit of info on Rameriz labels, which indicates they did use the round Blue labels on their guitars, and I am not sure that Indian Rosewood sides and back and Cedar top woods were used on "cheap" guitars
www.nopanic.com/ gitram/eng-etiquetas2.htm seemed to be one of the best references, however my headstock is weird

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