advice on P.B royal and especial

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Kent
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Re: advice on P.B royal and especial

Post by Kent » Fri Jul 31, 2015 7:53 pm

Riff, do you still have your nice PB that was listed here?

simonm
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Re: advice on P.B royal and especial

Post by simonm » Fri Jul 31, 2015 8:21 pm

ivan wrote:...

I will have a new Joshia de Jonge (spruce & CSA rosewood) next month. A new Dominique Field this September. And a new Andrea Tacchi - Coclea Thucea next year.
Now there are three reasons for anyone here to visit Jakarta! You have to post some photos of these when they arrive.

riffmeister
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Re: advice on P.B royal and especial

Post by riffmeister » Fri Jul 31, 2015 8:31 pm

Kent wrote:Riff, do you still have your nice PB that was listed here?
No longer with me, but still available.

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petermc61
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Re: advice on P.B royal and especial

Post by petermc61 » Sat Aug 01, 2015 12:07 am

The more I read this thread the more I scratch my head. I'd like to make a few observations:

1. Unless you try them side by side there is no basis for believing any sample of a Royal will sound better than any given sample of an Especial.
2. There is no basis for thinking that either of these guitars will be better than your Sakurai PC. Different, certainly, but not necessarily better.
3. Better is largely subjective.
4. Bernabe Jr guitars new (Especial and above) are above the market price for Bernabe Snr, the man the label's reputation was built on. They will not sell at a premium to his father's guitars if in similar condition.
5. Double tops and 'Smallmans' are not better than any of the guitars mentioned above. Louder than some, with a different tonal structure, but not better. (Interestingly, I think if you took an open poll here most people would probably reply 'worse'.)
6. If you are looking for an investment don't buy a CG. Own it purely for the love of an instrument. You will lose value (at least 30-40%) the moment you walk out the dealer's door with a new Bernabe.
7. If you want an instrument that will preserve its value AND be one that is a top flight instrument, choose one from a very highly regarded luthier that is either dead, producing in very low numbers or is very hard to get. Manual Velazquez and Dominique Field come to mind. You could get one if you are patient and you look around for a sensible price. They will hold their value.

Just some thoughts to consider.

Regards
Peter

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Kent
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Re: advice on P.B royal and especial

Post by Kent » Sat Aug 01, 2015 12:16 am

Agree Peter, and maybe he should look up Riffs Bernabe. An original that probably was built entirely by Bernabe himself. As I recall, it was offered at a bargain price.

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petermc61
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Re: advice on P.B royal and especial

Post by petermc61 » Sat Aug 01, 2015 12:20 am

Kent wrote:Agree Peter, and maybe he should look up Riffs Bernabe. An original that probably was built entirely by Bernabe himself. As I recall, it was offered at a bargain price.
Or my '73 cedar/Brazilian Bernabe Snr that I am also thinking of offering to the market. Gorgeous instrument, but possibly time to recycle funds into something else just for fun.

mmapag
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Re: advice on P.B royal and especial

Post by mmapag » Sat Aug 01, 2015 12:39 am

petermc61 wrote:The more I read this thread the more I scratch my head. I'd like to make a few observations:

1. Unless you try them side by side there is no basis for believing any sample of a Royal will sound better than any given sample of an Especial.
2. There is no basis for thinking that either of these guitars will be better than your Sakurai PC. Different, certainly, but not necessarily better.
3. Better is largely subjective.
4. Bernabe Jr guitars new (Especial and above) are above the market price for Bernabe Snr, the man the label's reputation was built on. They will not sell at a premium to his father's guitars if in similar condition.
5. Double tops and 'Smallmans' are not better than any of the guitars mentioned above. Louder than some, with a different tonal structure, but not better. (Interestingly, I think if you took an open poll here most people would probably reply 'worse'.)
6. If you are looking for an investment don't buy a CG. Own it purely for the love of an instrument. You will lose value (at least 30-40%) the moment you walk out the dealer's door with a new Bernabe.
7. If you want an instrument that will preserve its value AND be one that is a top flight instrument, choose one from a very highly regarded luthier that is either dead, producing in very low numbers or is very hard to get. Manual Velazquez and Dominique Field come to mind. You could get one if you are patient and you look around for a sensible price. They will hold their value.

Just some thoughts to consider.

Regards
Peter
This pretty much nails it. There is not some linear price/ value ratio that says the more you spend the "better" the guitar will be. This is especially true of DTs and "Smallmans".
'13 Esteve 7 SM
'75 Takamine 132 S
'99 G.V. Rubio Estudio, Cedar, Palo Escrito

Tapin
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Re: advice on P.B royal and especial

Post by Tapin » Sat Aug 01, 2015 12:54 am

riffmeister wrote:
Tapin wrote:I own sakurai PC at the moment
That is a very nice guitar. What's wrong with it?
Yes it is a very good guitar. Just want to have different charateristic guitar to play. :)

Tapin
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Re: advice on P.B royal and especial

Post by Tapin » Sat Aug 01, 2015 1:01 am

petermc61 wrote:The more I read this thread the more I scratch my head. I'd like to make a few observations:

1. Unless you try them side by side there is no basis for believing any sample of a Royal will sound better than any given sample of an Especial.
2. There is no basis for thinking that either of these guitars will be better than your Sakurai PC. Different, certainly, but not necessarily better.
3. Better is largely subjective.
4. Bernabe Jr guitars new (Especial and above) are above the market price for Bernabe Snr, the man the label's reputation was built on. They will not sell at a premium to his father's guitars if in similar condition.
5. Double tops and 'Smallmans' are not better than any of the guitars mentioned above. Louder than some, with a different tonal structure, but not better. (Interestingly, I think if you took an open poll here most people would probably reply 'worse'.)
6. If you are looking for an investment don't buy a CG. Own it purely for the love of an instrument. You will lose value (at least 30-40%) the moment you walk out the dealer's door with a new Bernabe.
7. If you want an instrument that will preserve its value AND be one that is a top flight instrument, choose one from a very highly regarded luthier that is either dead, producing in very low numbers or is very hard to get. Manual Velazquez and Dominique Field come to mind. You could get one if you are patient and you look around for a sensible price. They will hold their value.

Just some thoughts to consider.

Regards
Peter
Hello Peter, thanks a lot for sharing your opinion, I really appreciate it. fortunately I join this forum before I spend big on Guitar. Dominique Field is interesting, let me see if I can find it. Anyway after reading many comments from all of the masters here, seems that I will not go for Royal. Especial is still my optional choice, but let see if I can find guitar that will preserve its value, I dont think Especial will be a high value instrument in near future.

As for Sakurai, I love the guitar for it's playability, I practice regulary with it, and it is not french polish.

D.Cass
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Re: advice on P.B royal and especial

Post by D.Cass » Sat Aug 01, 2015 2:50 am

Tapin, I have seen you mention a the Bernabe and the Smallman. This seems to be opposite ends of the guitar spectrum. I will admit I have not played either of them.
My question to you is what are you looking for in a guitar? Do you want more volume? Wide color palette? Fast action? A Spanish sound?

In my case the last guitar I bought was a two year process to find the needs I wanted vs what was available. I was searching for more volume and clarity. Fortunately I had max budget. No telling what I would have ended up with an unlimited budget.

Tapin
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Re: advice on P.B royal and especial

Post by Tapin » Sat Aug 01, 2015 3:27 am

D.Cass wrote:Tapin, I have seen you mention a the Bernabe and the Smallman. This seems to be opposite ends of the guitar spectrum. I will admit I have not played either of them.
My question to you is what are you looking for in a guitar? Do you want more volume? Wide color palette? Fast action? A Spanish sound?

In my case the last guitar I bought was a two year process to find the needs I wanted vs what was available. I was searching for more volume and clarity. Fortunately I had max budget. No telling what I would have ended up with an unlimited budget.
Hello Cass, thank you for your comment, My first priority will be volume, maybe any suggestion from you?

D.Cass
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Location: Tri-Cities WA

Re: advice on P.B royal and especial

Post by D.Cass » Sat Aug 01, 2015 3:58 am

For volume you may look into a lattice braced guitar or a double top. Maybe there are some that are not of that construction. I have a Casimiro Lozano guitar and it has the same volume or pretty close to a Redgate, but the Lozano seems to have a wider tone pallette. I have played the two side by side and have audio comparisons of the two. The Lozano is not a double top, patent fan brace, and considerably cheaper than the others mentioned. Another loud guitar is Blackwell guitar, also considerably cheaper. I have a student that has a Contreras and that is a canon ball, but the sound is totally different than the Lozano. There are a lot of choices.

Tom
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Re: advice on P.B royal and especial

Post by Tom » Sat Aug 01, 2015 4:20 am

petermc61 wrote:The more I read this thread the more I scratch my head. I'd like to make a few observations:

1. Unless you try them side by side there is no basis for believing any sample of a Royal will sound better than any given sample of an Especial.
2. There is no basis for thinking that either of these guitars will be better than your Sakurai PC. Different, certainly, but not necessarily better.
3. Better is largely subjective.
4. Bernabe Jr guitars new (Especial and above) are above the market price for Bernabe Snr, the man the label's reputation was built on. They will not sell at a premium to his father's guitars if in similar condition.
5. Double tops and 'Smallmans' are not better than any of the guitars mentioned above. Louder than some, with a different tonal structure, but not better. (Interestingly, I think if you took an open poll here most people would probably reply 'worse'.)
6. If you are looking for an investment don't buy a CG. Own it purely for the love of an instrument. You will lose value (at least 30-40%) the moment you walk out the dealer's door with a new Bernabe.
7. If you want an instrument that will preserve its value AND be one that is a top flight instrument, choose one from a very highly regarded luthier that is either dead, producing in very low numbers or is very hard to get. Manual Velazquez and Dominique Field come to mind. You could get one if you are patient and you look around for a sensible price. They will hold their value.

Just some thoughts to consider.

Regards
Peter
Peter, very well said... I always enjoy reading your comment.

Especially the No. 1 point is spot on! Many people make the biggest mistake by comparing the sound of guitars via memory. Researcher has shown that it is a big mistake. Human brain cannot remember sound quality. It has to be a side-by-side comparison. Period!

Tom
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Joined: Fri Sep 11, 2009 11:40 am

Re: advice on P.B royal and especial

Post by Tom » Sat Aug 01, 2015 4:29 am

D.Cass wrote:For volume you may look into a lattice braced guitar or a double top. Maybe there are some that are not of that construction. I have a Casimiro Lozano guitar and it has the same volume or pretty close to a Redgate, but the Lozano seems to have a wider tone pallette. I have played the two side by side and have audio comparisons of the two. The Lozano is not a double top, patent fan brace, and considerably cheaper than the others mentioned. Another loud guitar is Blackwell guitar, also considerably cheaper. I have a student that has a Contreras and that is a canon ball, but the sound is totally different than the Lozano. There are a lot of choices.
I agree with your comment on the Contreras... especially the Double Tapa of Contreras, the basses are real canon ball that not even a lattice guitar can come close.

DanielIndo
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Re: advice on P.B royal and especial

Post by DanielIndo » Sat Aug 01, 2015 7:29 am

OldPotter wrote:Hi Tapin
if money is not a problem you would be better off travelling to try a lot of guitars, be prepared to spend time and don't rush.

I don't know where you find a "Royal" to try, I know of only one "Especial" for sale in the UK. I have admired the sound of a Bernabe for a while. The nearest thing soundwise might be a Ramirez 1a.

edit; I see that Simonm is of the same opinion.
I am interested in this reply regarding Ramirez 1a compared to P Bernabe. According to Ramirez history, Paulino Bernabe also one of Ramirez luthier in 1960s and written as PB after the type. Thus is logical to compare it with the "similar" constructor taste. Myself has Ramirez 1a that I think has excellent sound in humid country as in Indonesia. Just for limiting your range of so many choices.
2005 Jose Ramirez 1a Sakurai Kohno Special 2015
2005 Amalio Burguet 1F
2001 Juan Hernandez Maestro
2009 Loriente Angela
2011 Yamaha GC41
2015 Yamaha NCX2000FM

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