Let's Talk Tops - Cedar or Spruce......

Construction and repair of Classical Guitar and related instruments
robert e
Posts: 361
Joined: Fri Dec 11, 2015 6:49 pm

Re: Let's Talk Tops - Cedar or Spruce......

Postby robert e » Mon Jan 09, 2017 8:01 pm

Pat Dodson wrote:
Peter5 wrote:I completely agree with that statement! However sometimes you are in a different situation, e.g. you want to buy a used guitar and the seller tells you that it hasn´t been played for some time and it will wake up and the sound gets better again once it is more played. True ?........


In another thread that explored this controversial topic, (How do you judge a guitar's potential?) @JohnB summarised things pretty well I feel. Said John,

".... one should buy a guitar because of how it sounds when you play it - not how it might, hypothetically, sound in the future."

It seems that instruments "going to sleep" is a widely held belief among musicians, but the belief also holds that instruments "wake up" pretty quickly, the process starting immediately on being played again and completing in less than an hour to several hours of playing time, depending on who you ask. So, if true, it should take less than an hour to hear at least some improvement.

User avatar
tom0311
Amateur luthier
Posts: 1383
Joined: Tue Oct 23, 2012 12:37 pm
Location: Witney, Oxfordshire

Re: Let's Talk Tops - Cedar or Spruce......

Postby tom0311 » Mon Jan 09, 2017 8:35 pm

robert e wrote:Does it make a difference whether it's you or the guitar having a bad day? Or both? Either way, you're not hearing it at its best.


The end result is no different, of course. That wasn't really my point though. The post I was quoting stated that guitars have off days, so I was curious to see how souldier had come to that conclusion. Personally I am unconvinced that a guitar can have an off day. I have never experienced it from what I'm aware. It's usually my fault. I'm not very good though. I don't have any strong feelings either way on the subject, but it's interesting to talk about it. Seems it's the same sort of discussion as spruce vs cedar.
“There are two means of refuge from the misery of life - music and cats.”

User avatar
Michael.N.
Posts: 5936
Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2007 7:28 am
Location: UK

Re: Let's Talk Tops - Cedar or Spruce......

Postby Michael.N. » Mon Jan 09, 2017 9:11 pm

I once asked a guitar (that I happened to be playing) if he was feeling unwell and having an off day. In a rather loud and condescending voice he replied, 'no mate but you certainly are'.
He soon shut his soundhole when I picked up a 2" chisel.
Historicalguitars.

Dustin McKinney
Student of the online lessons
Posts: 99
Joined: Thu Nov 10, 2016 4:00 pm
Location: Kansas City, Missouri

Re: Let's Talk Tops - Cedar or Spruce......

Postby Dustin McKinney » Mon Jan 09, 2017 9:16 pm

Michael.N. wrote:I once asked a guitar (that I happened to be playing) if he was feeling unwell and having an off day. In a rather loud and condescending voice he replied, 'no mate but you certainly are'.
He soon shut his soundhole when I picked up a 2" chisel.


:lol: :lol: :lol:
Kremona Fiesta FC

robert e
Posts: 361
Joined: Fri Dec 11, 2015 6:49 pm

Re: Let's Talk Tops - Cedar or Spruce......

Postby robert e » Mon Jan 09, 2017 10:21 pm

tom0311 wrote:
robert e wrote:Does it make a difference whether it's you or the guitar having a bad day? Or both? Either way, you're not hearing it at its best.


The end result is no different, of course. That wasn't really my point though. The post I was quoting stated that guitars have off days, so I was curious to see how souldier had come to that conclusion. Personally I am unconvinced that a guitar can have an off day. I have never experienced it from what I'm aware. It's usually my fault. I'm not very good though. I don't have any strong feelings either way on the subject, but it's interesting to talk about it. Seems it's the same sort of discussion as spruce vs cedar.

I found Alan Carruth's explanation in another thread pretty convincing: viewtopic.php?t=109754

Wood absorbs moisture from the air as the humidity rises, which makes it both more dense and less stiff. Thus the 'wood' resonant modes tend to drop in pitch. Humid air is a bit less dense than dry air, and has a higher speed of sound, so the 'air' resonant modes rise in pitch as the humidity goes up. Since the timbre of the guitar has a lot to do with the way the different resonant modes line up, that changes. Also, damp wood has higher damping: it tends to dissipate vibration energy faster. This tends to kill high frequencies.

Grooveman JS
Posts: 57
Joined: Tue Jan 03, 2017 2:56 am

Re: Let's Talk Tops - Cedar or Spruce......

Postby Grooveman JS » Tue Jan 10, 2017 2:44 am

The above sounds learned :bravo: .....& I agree.....Apart from my mood & form that day as a player......the 2 most important factors are humidity level & temperature.
I keep my music room at 50-60% RH & air-conditioned between 24-26 deg cel but sometimes RH levels fluctuate more(below 50 even low 40s). With changes in humidity levels & temperature; I'd notice that the strings need to be tuned & tone; responsiveness of the instrument/playability is also affected to varying degrees. The ideal is between RH 50-55%....i find that my instruments are most "comfortable" in that RH zone. :) :)
Masaki Sakurai MA-RF
Antonio Picado Concierto DT

mqbernardo
Posts: 663
Joined: Wed Jun 29, 2011 9:30 pm

Re: Let's Talk Tops - Cedar or Spruce......

Postby mqbernardo » Tue Jan 10, 2017 9:30 am

Michael.N. wrote:I once asked a guitar (that I happened to be playing) if he was feeling unwell and having an off day. In a rather loud and condescending voice he replied, 'no mate but you certainly are'.
He soon shut his soundhole when I picked up a 2" chisel.

Funny Michael that you call that guitar a "he".

User avatar
Michael.N.
Posts: 5936
Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2007 7:28 am
Location: UK

Re: Let's Talk Tops - Cedar or Spruce......

Postby Michael.N. » Tue Jan 10, 2017 10:40 am

It happened to be a guitar that didn't have much of a waist.
Historicalguitars.

User avatar
rojarosguitar
Posts: 3567
Joined: Sat Sep 19, 2009 12:24 pm
Location: near Freiburg, Germany

Re: Let's Talk Tops - Cedar or Spruce......

Postby rojarosguitar » Tue Jan 10, 2017 11:55 am

dilettante1000 wrote:...

When someone with major influence comes out and plays a really great sounding CG made of something 'new', then there may start to be change. As of this moment I am not aware of such a material.


Like with the carbon fiber cello promoted by Yo-Yo Ma... (look up Luis and Clark + Yo-Yo Ma)...
Music is a big continent with different landscapes and corners. Some of them I do visit frequently, some from time to time and some I know from hearsay only ...

User avatar
bacsidoan
Posts: 2100
Joined: Sun May 10, 2009 1:59 am

Re: Let's Talk Tops - Cedar or Spruce......

Postby bacsidoan » Tue Jan 10, 2017 1:47 pm

rojarosguitar wrote:
dilettante1000 wrote:...

When someone with major influence comes out and plays a really great sounding CG made of something 'new', then there may start to be change. As of this moment I am not aware of such a material.


Like with the carbon fiber cello promoted by Yo-Yo Ma... (look up Luis and Clark + Yo-Yo Ma)...


In fact they make excellent cello and viola, best for the money IMHO. Violin, unfortunately not so much. With good design, I'm certain that a carbon fiber CG can hold its own sonically against traditional wood counterparts. However, it will be a very tough sell to classical guitar players who are generally very conservative minded.

User avatar
rojarosguitar
Posts: 3567
Joined: Sat Sep 19, 2009 12:24 pm
Location: near Freiburg, Germany

Re: Let's Talk Tops - Cedar or Spruce......

Postby rojarosguitar » Tue Jan 10, 2017 8:13 pm

I think also the carbon fiber cello, as I heard it, is rather on the bright side, and that means that a violin could be overly bright...
I'd like to hear an experimental classical guitar made from carbon fibre, before dismissing or acclaming...
Music is a big continent with different landscapes and corners. Some of them I do visit frequently, some from time to time and some I know from hearsay only ...

dilettante1000
Posts: 248
Joined: Wed Sep 23, 2015 10:29 am
Location: North Yorkshire

Re: Let's Talk Tops - Cedar or Spruce......

Postby dilettante1000 » Wed Jan 11, 2017 11:20 am

RainSong guitars - US, all graphite, not CG (yet). Google it.

User avatar
petermc61
Posts: 5346
Joined: Sun Apr 08, 2012 12:11 am
Location: Sydney, Australia

Re: Let's Talk Tops - Cedar or Spruce......

Postby petermc61 » Wed Jan 11, 2017 11:29 am

dilettante1000 wrote:RainSong guitars - US, all graphite, not CG (yet). Google it.


I'll leave that for others to own and play. Not for me.

Grooveman JS
Posts: 57
Joined: Tue Jan 03, 2017 2:56 am

Re: Let's Talk Tops - Cedar or Spruce......

Postby Grooveman JS » Wed Jan 11, 2017 11:51 am

petermc61 wrote:
dilettante1000 wrote:RainSong guitars - US, all graphite, not CG (yet). Google it.


I'll leave that for others to own and play. Not for me.


There you go...... :P :P
Masaki Sakurai MA-RF
Antonio Picado Concierto DT

User avatar
zupfgeiger
Posts: 1485
Joined: Wed Feb 08, 2012 12:12 pm
Location: Wezembeek-Oppem, Belgium

Re: Let's Talk Tops - Cedar or Spruce......

Postby zupfgeiger » Wed Jan 11, 2017 1:09 pm

There is a producer of all carbon fiber classical guitars in Germany. He cooperates with the well known luthier Stefan Schlemper.

http://leviora-guitars.de/en/

and here is the soundfile from Schlemper's website of an all carbon classical:

http://www.schlemper-guitar.de/userfile ... 0silky.mp3

In a blindfolded test I would say: not so bad...
The secret of getting ahead is getting started (Mark Twain)

Fritz Ober, Hauser/Torres model, spruce/BRAZ, 2015
Andrea Tacchi, Enrique Garcia model, Spruce/BRAZ, 2016
Yamaha SLG200S, silent guitar


Return to “Luthiers”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: CommonCrawl [Bot], kdwiklund, Sequoia and 19 guests