Let's Talk Tops - Cedar or Spruce......

Construction and repair of Classical Guitar and related instruments
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souldier
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Re: Let's Talk Tops - Cedar or Spruce......

Post by souldier » Wed Jan 11, 2017 1:32 pm

zupfgeiger wrote:There is a producer of all carbon fiber classical guitars in Germany. He cooperates with the well known luthier Stefan Schlemper.

http://leviora-guitars.de/en/

and here is the soundfile from Schlemper's website of an all carbon classical:

http://www.schlemper-guitar.de/userfile ... 0silky.mp3

In a blindfolded test I would say: not so bad...
If you didn't tell me that guitar was made of carbon, I'd say it actually sounds quite nice. But I do know, so I say it sounds terrible - very artificial and inorganic :D.
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Grooveman JS
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Re: Let's Talk Tops - Cedar or Spruce......

Post by Grooveman JS » Wed Jan 11, 2017 1:37 pm

There you are.....all of us; with our preconceived biases :) :) :)
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Guero
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Re: Let's Talk Tops - Cedar or Spruce......

Post by Guero » Wed Jan 11, 2017 1:49 pm

I think all these cedar/spruce threads violate paragraph XII of "Rules and procedures for participation in the forum".
XII No politics, no religion

Why?
Because [...] religious convictions are very respectable but can lead to heated discussions [...]
(Same for Segovia threads of course :wink: )

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rojarosguitar
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Re: Let's Talk Tops - Cedar or Spruce......

Post by rojarosguitar » Wed Jan 11, 2017 8:11 pm

zupfgeiger wrote:...
http://www.schlemper-guitar.de/userfile ... 0silky.mp3

In a blindfolded test I would say: not so bad...
I agree, not bad at all...
Music is a big continent with different landscapes and corners. Some of them I do visit frequently, some from time to time and some I know from hearsay only ...

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petermc61
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Re: Let's Talk Tops - Cedar or Spruce......

Post by petermc61 » Wed Jan 11, 2017 8:24 pm

Michael

Agree, not bad. Maybe it's the guitarist or choice of pieces but the guitar sounds identical on all three. I don't hear any colour variance or a different character for those three pieces (which I would have expected).

Peter

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Peter5
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Re: Let's Talk Tops - Cedar or Spruce......

Post by Peter5 » Wed Jan 11, 2017 10:28 pm

I am always very cautious with recorded samples. You never know how much effects have been added afterwards, e.g. reverb. In this sample I am quite sure reverb has been added. The real live sound will be definitely different.

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zupfgeiger
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Re: Let's Talk Tops - Cedar or Spruce......

Post by zupfgeiger » Thu Jan 12, 2017 8:49 am

petermc61 wrote:Michael

Agree, not bad. Maybe it's the guitarist or choice of pieces but the guitar sounds identical on all three. I don't hear any colour variance or a different character for those three pieces (which I would have expected).

Peter
Interesting is to go on Schlemper's website where he promotes different carbon versions alongside his diverse wooden models. There are some differences but not huge ones. Actually they all sound quite similar to me.
The secret of getting ahead is getting started (Mark Twain)

Tobias Braun, Santos copy, spruce/yew, 2017
Andrea Tacchi, Enrique Garcia model, Spruce/BRAZ, 2016
Giovanni Tacchi, Daniel Friederich copy, cedar/EIR, 2017
Alain Raifort, cedar/EIR, 2004

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rojarosguitar
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Re: Let's Talk Tops - Cedar or Spruce......

Post by rojarosguitar » Thu Jan 12, 2017 10:48 am

zupfgeiger wrote:
petermc61 wrote:Michael

Agree, not bad. Maybe it's the guitarist or choice of pieces but the guitar sounds identical on all three. I don't hear any colour variance or a different character for those three pieces (which I would have expected).

Peter
Interesting is to go on Schlemper's website where he promotes different carbon versions alongside his diverse wooden models. There are some differences but not huge ones. Actually they all sound quite similar to me.
Surely it's much easier to control different parameters like stiffness or thickness/mass of the top with such a relatively homogenous material than it is the case with wood, so it's easier to achieve consistent results. If I understand what is stated on their homepage there is nor bracing at all: another reason for less variations.

As to sound sample, there is either some reverb or it has been recorded in a lively room. The possibilities to manipulate sound to one's own taste are endless, so I only believe soundwhen I have played or listened in a real situation.

But at least it is possible to achieve consistent and agreable results in recording for sure ...
Music is a big continent with different landscapes and corners. Some of them I do visit frequently, some from time to time and some I know from hearsay only ...

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Michael.N.
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Re: Let's Talk Tops - Cedar or Spruce......

Post by Michael.N. » Thu Jan 12, 2017 11:03 am

Sounds like a lattice guitar to my ears. . . .
No, it doesn't sound bad. The treble string sounds a little harsh on the Mozart but not on the Tarrega.
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dilettante1000
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Re: Let's Talk Tops - Cedar or Spruce......

Post by dilettante1000 » Thu Jan 12, 2017 4:03 pm

Michael.N. wrote:Sounds like a lattice guitar to my ears. . . .
No, it doesn't sound bad. The treble string sounds a little harsh on the Mozart but not on the Tarrega.
Us luthiers are doomed but then again aren't we all.
Maybe it's time to consider making banjos :D

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rojarosguitar
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Re: Let's Talk Tops - Cedar or Spruce......

Post by rojarosguitar » Thu Jan 12, 2017 4:41 pm

Michael.N. wrote:Sounds like a lattice guitar to my ears. . . .
No, it doesn't sound bad. The treble string sounds a little harsh on the Mozart but not on the Tarrega.
Us luthiers are doomed but then again aren't we all.
On the homepage it says "Bracing: none".

This guitar is partly luthier made by Stephan Schlemper (I suppose he obtains the roughly made body from Leviora Guitars and refines it according to luthier standards), who also builds wooden guitars (how funny that sounds...). It costs 5000 Euro upwards, so people aren't going to buy it because it's cheap. Somebody really has to be convinced of having found his or her sound here...
Music is a big continent with different landscapes and corners. Some of them I do visit frequently, some from time to time and some I know from hearsay only ...

robert e
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Re: Let's Talk Tops - Cedar or Spruce......

Post by robert e » Thu Jan 12, 2017 5:58 pm

rojarosguitar wrote:
Surely it's much easier to control different parameters like stiffness or thickness/mass of the top with such a relatively homogenous material than it is the case with wood, so it's easier to achieve consistent results. If I understand what is stated on their homepage there is nor bracing at all: another reason for less variations.
Stability would be another key asset, no? I'd expect these tops are less influenced by humidity and temperature than wood or combination tops. I'm curious how these tops are finished, how fragile/tough the material and surface are, and how the material differs from previous CF tops, like Ovation's.

No bracing, but by "graduated" I assume the thickness is manipulated. And I'm assuming that this is how their "tap tuning" is accomplished. Which tells me that there may be some variation, though likely less than among wood components.

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Michael.N.
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Re: Let's Talk Tops - Cedar or Spruce......

Post by Michael.N. » Thu Jan 12, 2017 6:23 pm

I don't see the point of this carbon fibre anyway. I think it's looking through the wrong end of the telescope. What we really need is a digital nylon strung guitar. A bit like a digital piano but better. We can press a button and instantly get a 1940 Hauser or a 1888 Torres, a Lacote or Panormo or even a 2008 Smallman. Press another button and you can select Hannabach nylon, Aquila nylgut or even pure gut. Intonation will always be a bit off because that's the way we like it. Pretty much anything you want. How cool would that be? Even better if Walmart could fire them out of the door for a couple hundred bucks.
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rojarosguitar
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Re: Let's Talk Tops - Cedar or Spruce......

Post by rojarosguitar » Thu Jan 12, 2017 9:50 pm

robert e wrote: Stability would be another key asset, no? I'd expect these tops are less influenced by humidity and temperature than wood or combination tops. I'm curious how these tops are finished, how fragile/tough the material and surface are, and how the material differs from previous CF tops, like Ovation's.
Ovations as I know them had some compound body (CF?) but wooden top (often Sitka spruce). But I might be wrong...
Music is a big continent with different landscapes and corners. Some of them I do visit frequently, some from time to time and some I know from hearsay only ...

Grooveman JS
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Re: Let's Talk Tops - Cedar or Spruce......

Post by Grooveman JS » Fri Jan 13, 2017 4:16 am

rojarosguitar wrote:
robert e wrote: Stability would be another key asset, no? I'd expect these tops are less influenced by humidity and temperature than wood or combination tops. I'm curious how these tops are finished, how fragile/tough the material and surface are, and how the material differs from previous CF tops, like Ovation's.
Ovations as I know them had some compound body (CF?) but wooden top (often Sitka spruce). But I might be wrong...
Hi rojarosguitar; you're correct my friend .... I never liked the sound of it; no natural woody tones often heard in acoustic guitars.
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