Wood Database Take on CITES and Rosewood

Construction and repair of Classical Guitar and related instruments
Keith
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Wood Database Take on CITES and Rosewood

Post by Keith » Tue Jan 31, 2017 12:03 am

be true to the one you love but have many flings with different guitars

kdwiklund
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Re: Wood Database Take on CITES and Rosewood

Post by kdwiklund » Tue Jan 31, 2017 2:27 am

Thanks, Keith. Very helpful.
David Pace 2017 - cedar double-top
David Pace 2014 - spruce
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leafhound
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Re: Wood Database Take on CITES and Rosewood

Post by leafhound » Tue Jan 31, 2017 2:31 am

Bit confusing.

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David Norton
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Re: Wood Database Take on CITES and Rosewood

Post by David Norton » Tue Jan 31, 2017 3:03 am

Thank you, an interesting article. The various musical instrument dealers, exporters, and importers are in a real bind right now.
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Robert England
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Re: Wood Database Take on CITES and Rosewood

Post by Robert England » Tue Jan 31, 2017 6:16 pm

The video is a rambling half hour explanation and justification of the Appendix II listing of all Rosewoods. There is some information that was new to me. But there is nothing about what luthiers can do about it.
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guitarseller345645
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Re: Wood Database Take on CITES and Rosewood

Post by guitarseller345645 » Wed Feb 01, 2017 1:48 am

I suspect that due to this, some retailers have recently stopped international sales...sigh.
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leafhound
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Re: Wood Database Take on CITES and Rosewood

Post by leafhound » Wed Feb 01, 2017 3:01 am

so this is the decline of rosewood in the construction of guitars.

Brian M
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Re: Wood Database Take on CITES and Rosewood

Post by Brian M » Fri Feb 03, 2017 12:22 am

If new supplies of rosewood will not be coming into the country (whichever country you're concerned with), does anyone have an idea of how long the existing stocks would last, especially of Indian rosewood since it's the most commonly used? Keeping in mind the mass-market, especially steel-string, factories?

It wouldn't soon completely disappear from the market, of course, but it would follow the path of Brazilian (a.k.a. "CSA" :-) ) rosewood, soaring to astronomical price for a few high-end instruments.

That Florida rosewood that was being discussed here a few months ago may start looking better and better.

Marcus Dominelli
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Re: Wood Database Take on CITES and Rosewood

Post by Marcus Dominelli » Fri Feb 03, 2017 4:17 am

Brian M wrote:That Florida rosewood that was being discussed here a few months ago may start looking better and better.
I have some of it too. But seeing as it's a true dalbergia, I suspect it would still require the CITES papers to ship it back to the U.S., even though that's where it came from!
And to boot, it's considered an invasive species, meaning they want people to cut it down. How ironic it is....

Brian M
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Re: Wood Database Take on CITES and Rosewood

Post by Brian M » Fri Feb 03, 2017 7:48 pm

Marcus Dominelli wrote:
Brian M wrote:That Florida rosewood that was being discussed here a few months ago may start looking better and better.
I have some of it too. But seeing as it's a true dalbergia, I suspect it would still require the CITES papers to ship it back to the U.S., even though that's where it came from!
And to boot, it's considered an invasive species, meaning they want people to cut it down. How ironic it is....
May it continue to be successful in its invasion, may it become like the pestilent Acer platanoides that infests my former (now my ex-wife's :-( ) backyard.

Brian M
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Re: Wood Database Take on CITES and Rosewood

Post by Brian M » Fri Feb 03, 2017 8:17 pm

So reading the article linked to at the beginning of the thread, this looks world-changing, if I'm reading this correctly. Does this all mean, for example, that:

Martin can no longer ship D28s to e.g. Canada, similarly Taylor, Gibson, etc.?
Ramirez can no longer ship guitars containing any rosewood to the U.S.?
Takamine, Yamaha, etc. likewise?
Individual luthiers likewise, except those in Mexico?
The Chinese-made and Spanish-made rosewood-containing Cordoba models will be off the U.S. market once the current stock already in the U.S. is sold?
Etc., etc., etc.?

Wow.

Pat Dodson
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Re: Wood Database Take on CITES and Rosewood

Post by Pat Dodson » Fri Feb 03, 2017 8:40 pm

Brian M wrote:If new supplies of rosewood will not be coming into the country (whichever country you're concerned with), does anyone have an idea of how long the existing stocks would last, especially of Indian rosewood since it's the most commonly used? Keeping in mind the mass-market, especially steel-string, factories?
Have I misunderstood?

I thought the CITES 2 listing for Rosewoods would mean that timber merchants and luthier suppliers can export and import Rosewood timber provided they have permits to do so. And to get those requires them to show that the timber came from legally cut, sustainable sources. The bureaucracy will cause some delays and some additional expense and the volume of exports and imports of Rosewood timber for guitars will probably fall somewhat as illegally sourced material become less available. And no doubt this will drive up the price of various Rosewoods. But it wasn't intended to completely stop the trade (that's CITES 1) but instead to regulate it.

Rosewoods should still be available to luthiers and manufacturers. The big concerns have staffing and economies of scale when dealing with the bureaucracy. The volume available and the variety may reduce but I don't expect that it will be decimated. Much Rosewood for guitars is grown on plantations.

The additional hassles and costs for luthiers and guitar dealers will be a pain, not least if they want to export to a customer. Likewise for an owner wishing to sell secondhand across a national border. Again, the larger dealers will have staff and economies of scale to help but perhaps some vendors will not think it worth the trouble and will restrict sales to within their own country.

Yes, luthiers and manufacturers may well turn in part to other tonewoods for backs and sides. But probably only in part because Rosewoods should still be available.

Or have I misunderstood?

Brian M
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Re: Wood Database Take on CITES and Rosewood

Post by Brian M » Fri Feb 03, 2017 9:30 pm

Pat Dodson wrote:Or have I misunderstood?
Let's all hope that you have not misunderstood, and that the article linked to at the beginning of the thread is incorrect or misleading. Here's what it says:
Basically, as long as an item is not for sale and is simply for personal use, you can travel with it internationally. So, think of guitars made with rosewood, and other items weighing less than 22 pounds. The good news is that if you own an item made of rosewood, you should be able to travel with it without issue. But the bad news is that if you are selling any type of rosewood (either as lumber, or as a finished product), you can no longer (legally) ship it out of your country.
This sounds like if you're selling a finished product made out of rosewood, e.g. a truckload of D28s, "you can no longer (legally) ship it out of your country."

Is what I'm reading the article to be saying here correct?

Pat Dodson
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Re: Wood Database Take on CITES and Rosewood

Post by Pat Dodson » Fri Feb 03, 2017 10:08 pm

Brian M wrote:
Pat Dodson wrote:Or have I misunderstood?
Let's all hope that you have not misunderstood, and that the article linked to at the beginning of the thread is incorrect or misleading. Here's what it says:
Basically, as long as an item is not for sale and is simply for personal use, you can travel with it internationally. So, think of guitars made with rosewood, and other items weighing less than 22 pounds. The good news is that if you own an item made of rosewood, you should be able to travel with it without issue. But the bad news is that if you are selling any type of rosewood (either as lumber, or as a finished product), you can no longer (legally) ship it out of your country.
This sounds like if you're selling a finished product made out of rosewood, e.g. a truckload of D28s, "you can no longer (legally) ship it out of your country."

Is what I'm reading the article to be saying here correct?
I think that article does confuse at that point.

My (mis?)understanding Brian is that you CAN legally ship it out of your country but to do so you will need an export permit which shows that all its (CITES 2) Rosewood parts are made from either post January 2017 wood which was certified as from legal, sustainable sources or from wood which you can document was acquired pre January 2017. Your problem as a seller comes if you cannot prove either of those is the case.

Brian M
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Re: Wood Database Take on CITES and Rosewood

Post by Brian M » Fri Feb 03, 2017 10:37 pm

Pat Dodson wrote:
I think that article does confuse at that point.

My (mis?)understanding Brian is that you CAN legally ship it out of your country but to do so you will need an export permit which shows that all its (CITES 2) Rosewood parts are made from either post January 2017 wood which was certified as from legal, sustainable sources or from wood which you can document was acquired pre January 2017. Your problem as a seller comes if you cannot prove either of those is the case.
Hopefully you're right, and the article is wrong or confusing, and we can stop panicking about this. Not to worry, there are sufficient other things going on in the world to panic about. :-)

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