Ramirez Guitars - Difficult??

Construction and repair of Classical Guitar and related instruments
Grooveman JS
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Joined: Tue Jan 03, 2017 2:56 am

Re: Ramirez Guitars - Difficult??

Post by Grooveman JS » Mon Mar 13, 2017 5:41 am

Torres609 wrote:My brother owns both a 664 and 650 scale and when I play them, I find the difference isn't noticeable providing you've carefully set up the action height. The difference at the first fret is under 1.5mm so from my perspective, undetectable. Perhaps it's a psychological issue in that we expect 664 to be harder? My bro's 664 is set at 3.75 bass side and 3.00 treble side using D'Addario E46 strings (he's not an aggressive player) whereas the 650 needs a little extra height with 4mm bass side (same strings). They sound quite similar with the 664 having a slightly stronger bass response.
Thank you Torres.......i do notice from the videos that the newer guitars tend to sound brighter.....
Masaki Sakurai MA-RF
Antonio Picado Concierto DT

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georgemarousi
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Re: Ramirez Guitars - Difficult??

Post by georgemarousi » Mon Mar 13, 2017 1:30 pm

Torres609 wrote:My brother owns both a 664 and 650 scale and when I play them, I find the difference isn't noticeable providing you've carefully set up the action height. The difference at the first fret is under 1.5mm so from my perspective, undetectable. Perhaps it's a psychological issue in that we expect 664 to be harder? My bro's 664 is set at 3.75 bass side and 3.00 treble side using D'Addario E46 strings (he's not an aggressive player) whereas the 650 needs a little extra height with 4mm bass side (same strings). They sound quite similar with the 664 having a slightly stronger bass response.
Hi Torres!

Personally I have found quite remarcable differences between A1 of 664mm and "other" - no ramirez - 650mm's.

with pure mathematics, the length of the first 1/4 of the string, ( = 0 to 5th fret ) has exactly a 3,5mm difference. So for the diagonal, some more. If we add to this the bigger nut ( of 54mm ) it's even something more, where for instance we play wide left hand positions at the first frets, I roughy calculate that we can have an actual difference of 0,5 cm wich for me is quite remarkable and would take some use-to.

" My bro's 664 is set at 3.75 bass side "
If possible could you confirm that measure? I am very surprised for it to be that low, as the fretboard is "shaved" at the 12th bass side and measures typically bigger.. I have a 4+mm bass side, and almost zero bone left to go lower.. ( lowered even more recently ! ). If you are accurate, chances are that your 1A's bridge is shaved down, for an even smaller saddle bone?

thank you in advance!
George
--Classicals--
Paulino Bernabe Especial 2009
Ramirez 1A 1980
Alhambra Luthier india 2012
Juan Martinez nr 55 (the return @2014)
Yamaha cg 110 (as a kid @88)
--
student again since 2015, to my degree @..? - God bless!

Grooveman JS
Posts: 202
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Re: Ramirez Guitars - Difficult??

Post by Grooveman JS » Thu Mar 16, 2017 3:32 am

Just to report my findings....& my first impression with these guitars.....i played some new Ramirezs; both 650/52 (1A traditional, Antigua)..... its definitely a nice sounding guitar & quite easy playing too but built quality is average; compared with some guitars of this price range. The Antigua Spruce tone is clearer & more definitive than the Cedar & it has a more taut feel on both left & right hand......Overall I'd say nothing really very impressive for the 2 pieces that i played. I'll write more when i have a chance to play more.....
Masaki Sakurai MA-RF
Antonio Picado Concierto DT

Torres609
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Re: Ramirez Guitars - Difficult??

Post by Torres609 » Thu Mar 16, 2017 3:58 pm

Hi George. I checked my brother's 664 scale and yes the bass height (measured with capo on the first fret) is a tad under 4mm and there's a little over a 1/5 mms of bone over the saddle. I don't know if the bridge itself has been shaved down - - the guitar is a 1976 so who knows what happened in the past.

JohnEdwin
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Location: Denton, Texas

Re: Ramirez Guitars - Difficult??

Post by JohnEdwin » Sun Mar 19, 2017 3:11 am

I acquired a 1971 Ramirez 1a #4567 (J.G.) about two years ago from the classical guitar instructor I studied with 40 years ago. At the age of 67, I decided to study classical guitar again and I had always admired his Ramirez. Had had the action lowered to 3.0/3.5 with a 12-hole tie block done by a professional with surgical precision. She plays and sounds beautiful. The difficulty I have is the 664mm scale, and some reaches for me are difficult. After acquiring and playing on 650mm scale guitars, I am reluctantly swaying away from my Ramirez. I am at the point where I need to decide whether to sell it. (Too much money tied up in guitars!) If you would be interested in it, private message me. Your timing to buy and my timing to say good-bye to it might coincide.
John Edwin Snyder, Denton, TX USA (Student)

1966 Mercado ex. Earl Klugh
1971 Ramirez 1a (#4567 JG)
2012 WoodRing
2017 Cervantes Class Lattice IR C
2017 Hanika 58CC

Grooveman JS
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Re: Ramirez Guitars - Difficult??

Post by Grooveman JS » Mon Mar 20, 2017 3:22 am

Hi JohnEdwin welcome.....you're not alone in this; I see quite a few posts like yours for people who have given up on the instrument......I personally have not owned any Ramirezs but am captivated by the sound of the instrument in various video clips. I don't think I'd want to venture into the 664 scale/53 or 54 nut guitars but am open to trying 650/52 guitars. if you're indeed intending to sell your instrument; you'd garner more attention by placing an ad in the Classical Guitar for Sale section.
Masaki Sakurai MA-RF
Antonio Picado Concierto DT

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georgemarousi
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Re: Ramirez Guitars - Difficult??

Post by georgemarousi » Fri Mar 24, 2017 8:21 am

Torres609 wrote:Hi George. I checked my brother's 664 scale and yes the bass height (measured with capo on the first fret) is a tad under 4mm and there's a little over a 1/5 mms of bone over the saddle. I don't know if the bridge itself has been shaved down - - the guitar is a 1976 so who knows what happened in the past.
Hi Torres, thank you for your prompt reply !

I have done more measurements too, though I dont have fine gear to measure;

So my 664 1A is finally exactly 4mm basses @12th fret ( sorry, thought 4+ at first ) and trebles are below 3mm (!!!) - almost 2,5 as far as I can tell !

My saddle is just a fraction above the saddle, I would say 1/5 mm too..

So we have practitally about the same setup :)

So probably there were no further job to have lower action for your brothers guitar too I guess. I just wonder now, if it worths to go to a luthier and trim the bridge a couple of mm, so to go to about 3,5mm at the basses.. hmm.. :?:
--Classicals--
Paulino Bernabe Especial 2009
Ramirez 1A 1980
Alhambra Luthier india 2012
Juan Martinez nr 55 (the return @2014)
Yamaha cg 110 (as a kid @88)
--
student again since 2015, to my degree @..? - God bless!

Grooveman JS
Posts: 202
Joined: Tue Jan 03, 2017 2:56 am

Re: Ramirez Guitars - Difficult??

Post by Grooveman JS » Thu Mar 30, 2017 3:52 am

Did my Japan guitar tour, visited 2 Classical Guitar Shops - Aura & Dr Sound (3rd level CG). Great Japanese hospitality; Amongst Hausers, Paul Fischer, Gerhard Oldiges, Japanese Guitars including a Kohno Maestro. I played 4 Ramirezs (2 Auditorio, 2 1As); that's what i want to report....I don't think much of the Auditorios, it lacks the defninton of the solid tops; best way to describe it is "its there but not quite there"; gives an impression of more sustain/resonance but its kind of vague.... maybe its the Double top thing...... I played a 1A 664/53 one that bears the signature of somebody; don't remember the initials cos i wasn't impressed at all.......I played another 1A made in 2000 that's really quite special; this one is the bright spot; its definitely a good piece.....it rings & has a warm glow to the sound across the registers.....I think this is special ordered as Its got Madagascar RW B&S & a high C fretboard. With the exception of the vintage 664/53 ;the newer guitars that are 650/52 are all quite easy playing both on the LH & RH & have pretty nice neck profiles (not the thick type)
Masaki Sakurai MA-RF
Antonio Picado Concierto DT

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