Multi piece bone saddle

Construction and repair of Classical Guitar and related instruments
SteveL123
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Re: Multi piece bone saddle

Postby SteveL123 » Fri Mar 10, 2017 5:31 am

Duplicate post delete.
Last edited by SteveL123 on Fri Mar 10, 2017 10:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

OldPotter
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Re: Multi piece bone saddle

Postby OldPotter » Fri Mar 10, 2017 8:27 am

There have been several conversions from 6 to 12 hole bridges over the years. I have also done one. A small drill bit at the right length is probably available from specialist suppliers (aircraft long bits) but they are hopelessly flexible in those sizes. I have heard of one person using this but would recommend its not done that way. Every one else has used a standard length drill bit mounted in a dowel extension, either wood or metal. See frets.com for a way of drilling the dowel centrally. Its also very difficult to start a drill at a precise point at that distance. Much better to make a template out of aluminium. Also note that the original holes will have been drilled at an angle, something you cannot do with the bridge fitted on the top.
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es335
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Re: Multi piece bone saddle

Postby es335 » Fri Mar 10, 2017 8:50 am

Yes, but the tie block had quite a bit more meat, which made the work easier than in your case.

In your case string ties would have the same effect, though aesthetically less neutral.
Search this forum for string ties and you will find the different choices, which are available.
BTW the new Diamond string ties seem to be a good compromise in size and aesthetic appearance.

Otherwise I do suggest to take your guitar to a luthier. They are usually well prepared for this and it will not cost a fortune!

SteveL123
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Re: Multi piece bone saddle

Postby SteveL123 » Fri Mar 10, 2017 6:03 pm

es335 wrote:Yes, but the tie block had quite a bit more meat, which made the work easier than in your case.

In your case string ties would have the same effect, though aesthetically less neutral.
Search this forum for string ties and you will find the different choices, which are available.
BTW the new Diamond string ties seem to be a good compromise in size and aesthetic appearance.

Otherwise I do suggest to take your guitar to a luthier. They are usually well prepared for this and it will not cost a fortune!


Hi es335 , I did a search and came up with this thread viewtopic.php?f=11&t=72654 where many options were discussed. I find that I do not care for string ties of the various forms, they are ugly, add extra parts, etc. I like the 12 hole tie block better.

Thanks for the suggestion to take the guitar to a luthier. I like to work on things myself and have pretty good hand working skills. I always think things through before doing anything and usually don't break things anymore. I used to take everything apart when I was young to see how they work and broke many things back then, but not anymore. :D

Marshall Dixon
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Re: Multi piece bone saddle

Postby Marshall Dixon » Fri Mar 10, 2017 10:01 pm

SteveL123 wrote:Aesthetics aside, is there anything wrong with using multi piece bone saddles to optimize/ dial in string heights @ the 12th fret? I was thinking of making 6 individual bone saddles with a gap between each (to avoid buzzing). Once dialed in, I can make a one piece saddle and transfer the dimensions over, or leave the individual saddles if sound/ tone is not affected by having individual saddles.


Perhaps not applicable to your situation, but thought you might like to check out the way John Gilbert did it. He drilled a hole in the approptiate place to insert a brass (I think it was) rod with a concavity to hold the individual string. I did an internet search to look for pictures. You will also find pictures of a one piece saddle with semi circular notches cut on the bottom side of the saddle between the strings so the bearing surface of the saddle is directly under the string. This may help to even out the pressure and response from string to string (I've heard of this in regard to the instillation of under saddle peizo pickups mostly).

Thanks for asking this question. I've never tried either but the last sounds interesting and easy.

SteveL123
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Re: Multi piece bone saddle

Postby SteveL123 » Fri Mar 10, 2017 10:24 pm

OldPotter wrote:There have been several conversions from 6 to 12 hole bridges over the years. I have also done one. A small drill bit at the right length is probably available from specialist suppliers (aircraft long bits) but they are hopelessly flexible in those sizes. I have heard of one person using this but would recommend its not done that way. Every one else has used a standard length drill bit mounted in a dowel extension, either wood or metal. See frets.com for a way of drilling the dowel centrally. Its also very difficult to start a drill at a precise point at that distance. Much better to make a template out of aluminium. Also note that the original holes will have been drilled at an angle, something you cannot do with the bridge fitted on the top.


Good point not using a 7" long floppy drill bit and instead use a dowel extension on a regular length drill bit. As far as the second hole, it does not need to be drilled at an angle like the original. Isn't that true? The second hole's purpose is to increase the number of string wraps around the tie-block to increase friction, at the same time it also increase the string break angle.

OldPotter
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Re: Multi piece bone saddle

Postby OldPotter » Fri Mar 10, 2017 10:30 pm

As far as the second hole, it does not need to be drilled at an angle like the original.


Yes that's true, my point was that when you come to mark out the height of the additional hole, it may not be the same height as the original one. I had to check carefully to actually come out in the hollow of the bridge. Depends on the detail design of the bridge.
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SteveL123
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Re: Multi piece bone saddle

Postby SteveL123 » Tue Mar 14, 2017 4:44 pm

OldPotter wrote:
As far as the second hole, it does not need to be drilled at an angle like the original.


Yes that's true, my point was that when you come to mark out the height of the additional hole, it may not be the same height as the original one. I had to check carefully to actually come out in the hollow of the bridge. Depends on the detail design of the bridge.


I shaved a toothpick to fit into the tieblock holes and stuck it in E6, as you can see, the original hole is not drilled at an angle. Doesn't really matter though. I just need to drill another hole approx 1/3 to the right and slightly above the existing holes.

I just need to make some tools and a jig to do it.
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rojarosguitar
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Re: Multi piece bone saddle

Postby rojarosguitar » Tue Mar 14, 2017 8:05 pm

SteveL123 wrote:Has anyone converted a 6 hole bridge to a 12 hole to increase break angle? The break angles on the 3 treble strings are pretty flat now after filing the saddle pieces lower. If I can get a 7" long drill bit, I think I should be able to drill the bridge in situ with good enough accuracy enough if I make a jig.


Yes, I have had it done by Sebastian Stenzel on my Baarslag. You need a special drill and you MUST counter the wood of the tie block where the drill will come out because otherwise the wood will fray or splinter. It was a bit delicate, but Sebastian made it perfect.

Coming back to the six piece bone saddle: actually there is no reason to separate the pieces. You can also just make indentations where there is no string and file the bone to the proper action on each string separately. I could imagine that a fractured bone (!) causes less resonant sound, but maybe the effect is too small to be noticed.
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Bill B
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Re: Multi piece bone saddle

Postby Bill B » Wed Mar 15, 2017 3:36 pm

I posted in another place about a possible solution to your 12 hole project. I saw a video of Paco Pena playing a guitar with what appears to be a piece of bone up against the holes of the tie block, 6 hole, but the holes are small enough that he can just tie a simple knot in the string and it won't pull through. same break angle benefit as 12 hole, or bone beads, and simple, and not invasive. also, much less noticeable than beads. I will see if I can find the video.
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Bill B
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Re: Multi piece bone saddle

Postby Bill B » Wed Mar 15, 2017 3:38 pm

Here was my original post.
"I was watching youtube videos of Paco Pena, and noticed he had something I had never seen before, I think. I won't post a link to avoid getting in any trouble, but the title was "Paco Peña - Riomar (Fandangos De Huelva)" if you search youtube for that you will find it. He seems to have a single piece about the size of a bone saddle blank, drilled, up against the tie block, and each string simply knotted and passed through the bone, then through the tie block and over the saddle. similar to those who use beads, but one piece. Anyone ever seen this or tried it? or am I not seeing what I think I'm seeing here?"
2013 Angel Benito Aguado
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rojarosguitar
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Re: Multi piece bone saddle

Postby rojarosguitar » Thu Mar 16, 2017 6:00 am

Bill B wrote:I posted in another place about a possible solution to your 12 hole project. I saw a video of Paco Pena playing a guitar with what appears to be a piece of bone up against the holes of the tie block, 6 hole, but the holes are small enough that he can just tie a simple knot in the string and it won't pull through. same break angle benefit as 12 hole, or bone beads, and simple, and not invasive. also, much less noticeable than beads. I will see if I can find the video.


This is a dangerous technique to knot strings in narrow knots. If you don't want to drill a 12 hole tie block I would recommend the three hole bone beads (there are different variations on that theme around, and it was touched upon here in the forum quite often).
Music is a big continent with different landscapes and corners. Some of them I do visit frequently, some from time to time and some I know from hearsay only ...

Bill B
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Re: Multi piece bone saddle

Postby Bill B » Thu Mar 16, 2017 8:37 pm

rojarosguitar wrote:
Bill B wrote:I posted in another place about a possible solution to your 12 hole project. I saw a video of Paco Pena playing a guitar with what appears to be a piece of bone up against the holes of the tie block, 6 hole, but the holes are small enough that he can just tie a simple knot in the string and it won't pull through. same break angle benefit as 12 hole, or bone beads, and simple, and not invasive. also, much less noticeable than beads. I will see if I can find the video.


This is a dangerous technique to knot strings in narrow knots. If you don't want to drill a 12 hole tie block I would recommend the three hole bone beads (there are different variations on that theme around, and it was touched upon here in the forum quite often).

I haven't tried it because it seemed risky to me, but when I saw Paco Peña doing it in the video, I figured it must be possible. Maybe I will try it with my R2.
2013 Angel Benito Aguado
2005 Ramirez R-2

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rojarosguitar
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Re: Multi piece bone saddle

Postby rojarosguitar » Fri Mar 17, 2017 4:30 pm

Bill B wrote:
rojarosguitar wrote:
Bill B wrote:I posted in another place about a possible solution to your 12 hole project. I saw a video of Paco Pena playing a guitar with what appears to be a piece of bone up against the holes of the tie block, 6 hole, but the holes are small enough that he can just tie a simple knot in the string and it won't pull through. same break angle benefit as 12 hole, or bone beads, and simple, and not invasive. also, much less noticeable than beads. I will see if I can find the video.


This is a dangerous technique to knot strings in narrow knots. If you don't want to drill a 12 hole tie block I would recommend the three hole bone beads (there are different variations on that theme around, and it was touched upon here in the forum quite often).

I haven't tried it because it seemed risky to me, but when I saw Paco Peña doing it in the video, I figured it must be possible. Maybe I will try it with my R2.


The problem here is that maybe In 95% of all cases the string may not break, but the breakage is not foreseeable, and not totally improbable. When it happens on a guitar you like you will have regrets. Why not use time proven methods like diamond secure system or diamond string beads (made by rosette guitars) or other such multi hole beads? They work well, achieve the same effect as having 12 hole tie bridge and the probability of the strings breakage ist not higher than with any conventional tying method.
Music is a big continent with different landscapes and corners. Some of them I do visit frequently, some from time to time and some I know from hearsay only ...

Bill B
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Re: Multi piece bone saddle

Postby Bill B » Tue Mar 21, 2017 1:57 pm

rojarosguitar wrote:
Bill B wrote:
rojarosguitar wrote:
This is a dangerous technique to knot strings in narrow knots. If you don't want to drill a 12 hole tie block I would recommend the three hole bone beads (there are different variations on that theme around, and it was touched upon here in the forum quite often).

I haven't tried it because it seemed risky to me, but when I saw Paco Peña doing it in the video, I figured it must be possible. Maybe I will try it with my R2.


The problem here is that maybe In 95% of all cases the string may not break, but the breakage is not foreseeable, and not totally improbable. When it happens on a guitar you like you will have regrets. Why not use time proven methods like diamond secure system or diamond string beads (made by rosette guitars) or other such multi hole beads? They work well, achieve the same effect as having 12 hole tie bridge and the probability of the strings breakage ist not higher than with any conventional tying method.

I don't think this method is necessarily any less secure than the beads, and I think it looks better.
2013 Angel Benito Aguado
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