Is the Tatay bracing pattern the most unusual one ?

Construction and repair of Classical Guitar and related instruments
amezcua
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Is the Tatay bracing pattern the most unusual one ?

Post by amezcua » Tue Mar 21, 2017 2:38 pm

Many articles are written about bracing but to me the odd one out (not being derogatory ) seems to be the Tatay pattern. Fan braces commonly spread across the whole surface evenly .Most "radiate" from the sound hole outwards as if to draw vibrations towards the hole.Others radiate in the opposite direction from the end block .Some radiate from the bridge in both directions . But Tatay puts a brace across the top as if hanging onto the ladder brace method . His long braces do not radiate .They line up parrallel and shorter ones above the cross bar brace fill in the path towards the soundhole. Has anyone any good reasons for that ?
The other odd ones would be the reverse fan from the end block but that spreads all across the top area too.Also radiating in both directions from the bridge .
If you know of completely different Tatay patterns it will make a good topic somewhere else .
Does it all prove that none of it matters in the least ? I hope not .

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pogmoor
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Re: Is the Tatay bracing pattern the most unusual one ?

Post by pogmoor » Tue Mar 21, 2017 4:23 pm

There are really quite a lot of bracing patterns around as these images illustrate:
Bracing.jpg
Guitar.bracing.jpg
- suggesting that the Tatay system is not particularly unusual :!:

(Acknowledgements to johnd who posted the first one here: viewtopic.php?t=104132#p1108374 - in a thread that shows several other examples of bracing pattern and provides a fairly extensive discussion of the topic);
and acknowledgements to Wikimedia Commons for the second image.)
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amezcua
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Re: Is the Tatay bracing pattern the most unusual one ?

Post by amezcua » Tue Mar 21, 2017 8:28 pm

Oh good more patterns. I don`t know how to relate them together logically but I did say "to me " when I asked the question . This is strictly "for me `asking a question . Even as I say that I don`t really know why that Tatay pattern draws my attention . Has anyone written about their impressions of the sounds made by the different patterns ?
Another question hanging there is ; have any hybrid patterns emerged with "patches of lattice "mixed with the more normal long braces. I mostly see all lattice if there is any lattice .
Here`s another question that popped up .Has any bracing been influenced by Chladni patterns ? How could those patterns be averaged out enough to be useable ?

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Re: Is the Tatay bracing pattern the most unusual one ?

Post by RedCliff » Tue Mar 21, 2017 9:11 pm

I'm sure different people will chime in to say that this or the other pattern is the best, the most scientific, the loudest, etc etc. A few observations from an amateur, born sceptic, and admittedly at the beginning of my journey as an instrument maker:

1) Everybody has an angle and something to gain in selling their pattern/design
2) The market respects two things - a) Purest tradition (Torres, Hauser etc.) b) Innovation and a unique selling point (the miracle cure, the silver bullet).
3) Very few people spend truly long enough perfecting a single design to the best of their abilities before moving on to an alternate design in the belief it could just be the next big thing

In conclusion - find something you like the sound of pattern wise, spend a lot of time perfecting making that design. Pretty much any of the respected designs will probably make excellent instruments if you spend long enough learning how to get the best from it. In blind tests, no-one will know which it is anyway. :)
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geoff-bristol
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Re: Is the Tatay bracing pattern the most unusual one ?

Post by geoff-bristol » Tue Mar 21, 2017 9:27 pm

Strangely just today I have been drawing up various options for bracing a top, similar to torres etc - but detaching the lower bar from the top across the full width - except the lining area ?

amezcua
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Re: Is the Tatay bracing pattern the most unusual one ?

Post by amezcua » Wed Mar 22, 2017 9:56 pm

Howsabout ---maybe four braces----- but make them as strips of lattice in the position a fan layout would be. Only four as they will each take up more room . The loudness (plus) and the less traditional tone (minus ) might balance out in a good way . Some guitars have been made with different woods in the braces .Some spruce and some cedar inside the one guitar . So we can mix up lattice and straight braces too . And leave some clear spaces to resonate in between .
Tatay mixed up cross braces and more familiar modern bracing . Mix and match .See what happens .

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bear
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Re: Is the Tatay bracing pattern the most unusual one ?

Post by bear » Wed Mar 22, 2017 10:01 pm

pogmoor wrote:There are really quite a lot of bracing patterns around as these images illustrate:

Bracing.jpg
Guitar.bracing.jpg
- suggesting that the Tatay system is not particularly unusual :!:

(Acknowledgements to johnd who posted the first one here: viewtopic.php?t=104132#p1108374 - in a thread that shows several other examples of bracing pattern and provides a fairly extensive discussion of the topic);
and acknowledgements to Wikimedia Commons for the second image.)
This is one of the most interesting and educational posts. Thank You.
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Re: Is the Tatay bracing pattern the most unusual one ?

Post by Keith » Thu Mar 23, 2017 12:27 am

Interesting that Ramirez 3 was not mentioned nor Santos--both innovators. Also interesting are the two lattice type bracing patterns not attributed to Smallman rather to luthiers who are post- Smallman.
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Michael.N.
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Re: Is the Tatay bracing pattern the most unusual one ?

Post by Michael.N. » Thu Mar 23, 2017 7:39 am

amezcua wrote:Howsabout ---maybe four braces----- but make them as strips of lattice in the position a fan layout would be. Only four as they will each take up more room . The loudness (plus) and the less traditional tone (minus ) might balance out in a good way . Some guitars have been made with different woods in the braces .Some spruce and some cedar inside the one guitar . So we can mix up lattice and straight braces too . And leave some clear spaces to resonate in between .
Tatay mixed up cross braces and more familiar modern bracing . Mix and match .See what happens .
It's easy to come up with hundreds of ideas but it takes an awful lot of time to implement them. I tried ladder bracing on a modern plantilla and couldn't get it to work to my satisfaction. I went through 3 soundboards. I gave up. Eventually I removed the ladder braces on the last attempt and started gluing braces on the outside of the soundboard. That made it a lot quicker to remove them and alter their position. I ended up with a variation on fan bracing but it took an awful long time to get there. Then you have to persuade people that you've come up with something that is a must have. Given that there has been literally hundreds (if not thousands) of different bracing patterns the chances are you haven't come up with anything that's going to shake the world. Hopefully you can get your new bracing to work and to work in a consistent manner. Often that's as much as you can wish for.
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Re: Is the Tatay bracing pattern the most unusual one ?

Post by simonm » Thu Mar 23, 2017 7:56 am

amezcua wrote: Does it all prove that none of it matters in the least ? ....
Answer to all questions regarding bracing.

Yes.
No.
It depends.

The bracing pattern is part of a system which includes the thickness of the top, the specific characteristics of the piece of wood being used for the top, the diameter of the sound hole thickness of the sides and back and most likely some other elements. So pick your answer: the bracing pattern is absolutely critical; the bracing pattern doesn't matter at all so long as it works with the rest of the elements.

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Re: Is the Tatay bracing pattern the most unusual one ?

Post by Brian McCombs » Thu Mar 23, 2017 12:46 pm

So many choices....gives my brain heartburn!

My last 18 guitars have had the same bracing pattern a la Torres. Some cedar but mostly spruces. While I would not wish to make any statements that would suggest I think I know anything profound concerning the classical top bracing.....I can certainly say none are very much alike. Some elements seem to be a bit common from guitar to guitar but overall they can vary widely in other ways. Enough so that it leads me to conclude I need not worry so much about the bracing as a separate component or how it is patterned. I can just make the same pattern but focus more on thicknesses and flexibilities of the soundboard and how it couples with the rest of the guitar. Sounds boring but I'm convinced it isn't. I'm pretty sure that if the sun shines on me and I can make an additional 100 guitars using the same pattern.....I probably won't have much more insight about it than I do now! But, that is one of the cool things about the craft after all....if you could accurately forecast and know EXACTLY how the guitar would sound in all aspects of tone and voice long before it was finished....well now THAT would be boring.

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Re: Is the Tatay bracing pattern the most unusual one ?

Post by amezcua » Thu Mar 23, 2017 8:35 pm

One thing puzzles me about Tatay . I read last week that the firm developed in size and now makes thousands of guitars (40,000 per year ) .But googling does not reveal very much at all apart from vintage models . Is this an American bias to the internet accidentally or deliberately blocking Spanish guitars ? I could look at the Spanish edition of Delcamp . The translator works but I can`t make my login work there .
Edit .I just had a look on the Spanish Delcamp site with the translator and found others who can`t locate anything about the modern Tatay factory. Most peculiar .

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Re: Is the Tatay bracing pattern the most unusual one ?

Post by John higgon » Sat Mar 25, 2017 1:14 pm

Looking at the chart posted by Pogmoor, most of the designs are variations on fan bracing, some of them are lattice designs, but the one that looks quite interesting to me is the Locke design where the braces radiate outwards from the bridge. I nearly used that on the guitar I'm making at present, but bottled out. Intuitively, it seems to make sense, but I don't know enough about the physics of it to have an informed opinion. Would be interested to hear from those who have used this method or have played guitars with this bracing.

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Re: Is the Tatay bracing pattern the most unusual one ?

Post by Michael.N. » Sat Mar 25, 2017 1:43 pm

Just go for the one that forms the prettiest geometric pattern.
Most people seem to think that the more bits of wood glued to the soundboard the better and more complex the sound, think of it as a steam engine (traditional), internal combustion (getting modern) and I suppose the lattice is the jet engine. Perhaps the double top is turbo charged.
I've no idea what they would think of the romantic ladder bracing or (heaven forbid) no bracing at all. Probably powered by oxen.
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Re: Is the Tatay bracing pattern the most unusual one ?

Post by Dirck Nagy » Sat Mar 25, 2017 2:54 pm

amezcua wrote:One thing puzzles me about Tatay . I read last week that the firm developed in size and now makes thousands of guitars (40,000 per year ) .But googling does not reveal very much at all apart from vintage models . Is this an American bias to the internet accidentally or deliberately blocking Spanish guitars ? I could look at the Spanish edition of Delcamp . The translator works but I can`t make my login work there .
Edit .I just had a look on the Spanish Delcamp site with the translator and found others who can`t locate anything about the modern Tatay factory. Most peculiar .
I'm curious about this too. I thought Tatay was long defunct. Where did you read about their expansion?

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