We who love Japanese classical guitars - Delcamp

Construction and repair of Classical Guitar and related instruments
dandan
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Re: We who love Japanese classical guitars - Delcamp

Post by dandan » Sat Jul 29, 2017 8:46 pm

eno wrote:
Sat Jul 29, 2017 7:48 pm
dandan wrote:
Thu Jul 27, 2017 8:46 am
Grooveman JS wrote:
Thu Jul 27, 2017 6:55 am
hope you enjoy your instrument for a long time to come! cheers! :bravo:
Thanks! I'm still in shock!
Dandan, I can see in your signature Kono placed above Rokutaru. Do you like Kono more now?
It would be really interesting to compare the sound and design of Ko(h)no models throughout the 60s period to see how the sound and bracing patterns evolved.
The Rokutaro is still my favourite. The Kohno is incredible though, definitely a keeper. They're so different its hard to compare them, but they're both a cut above my other two, which are excellent guitars in their own right.
1969 Rokutaro Nakade A9
1966 Sakazo Nakade model D
1988 Hiroumi Yamaguchi SS
1977 Aria AG80

SteveL123
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Re: We who love Japanese classical guitars - Delcamp

Post by SteveL123 » Sat Jul 29, 2017 8:53 pm

rinneby wrote:
Sat Jul 29, 2017 8:41 pm
SteveL123 wrote:
Sat Jul 29, 2017 8:38 pm
eno wrote:
Thu Jul 27, 2017 2:35 pm

Take a look here, at least C136S are all cedar. As for C132S, I've only seen cedar so far. They are basically copies of Ramirez 1a which is cedar-based.
I picked up the C132S. It's cedar as you said. Big surprise it's 660 not 650 scale length! It has what I think is called ladder bracing. Top resonance F#, very loud, deep base exc trebles, good sustain and no dead notes! I am impressed! I just wish the scale length is 650 though.

It has a minor ding 1/8" wide on the upper bout of the top, finger nail wear in the first 3 frets and light pick marks, otherwise it's in excellent condition. Looks like the previous owner only played chords in the first position and never cut his/her nails.

A magnet sticks to the middle of the finger board which suggest there's a truss rod but I cannot find or see any adjustment that is accessible on the inside.
Nice. But don't get too hung up on the scale, you'll get used to it fairly quick, some things are even easier (at least to me) to do on a longer scale guitar.

All the best from Sweden

/Jon
Thanks! My other guitar is 656 mm, I don't have particularly long fingers and was hoping a 650 will be easier on 5 fret stretches, instead I have to deal with another 4 mm.

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eno
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Re: We who love Japanese classical guitars - Delcamp

Post by eno » Sat Jul 29, 2017 9:47 pm

SteveL123 wrote:
Sat Jul 29, 2017 8:38 pm
Big surprise it's 660 not 650 scale length!
Yes, all C13x series if 660 being a copy of Ramirez 1a
Paulino Bernabe 'India' 2001
Masaru Kohno No.6 1967
Rokutaro Nakade 1967
Mitsuru Tamura No.800 1969

SteveL123
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Re: We who love Japanese classical guitars - Delcamp

Post by SteveL123 » Sat Jul 29, 2017 9:56 pm

eno wrote:
Sat Jul 29, 2017 9:47 pm
SteveL123 wrote:
Sat Jul 29, 2017 8:38 pm
Big surprise it's 660 not 650 scale length!
Yes, all C13x series if 660 being a copy of Ramirez 1a
Does Ramirez use ladder bracing? Takemine literature specifically says the C132S has a 650 scale length.

SteveL123
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Re: We who love Japanese classical guitars - Delcamp

Post by SteveL123 » Sat Jul 29, 2017 11:48 pm

Here's some pics. Guitar Center allows 72 hrs trial return. It will be a keeper since I've done a lot to it already which include: new strings EJ46FF carbon, removed tuners to lube and wax rollers so they're super smooth now. setup action on nut and a new bone saddle... no more squeaks while tuning, 000 steel wool the fret board to clean /polish frets, polished guitar with Novus fine plastic polishing compound and removed pick scratches on top and zipper scratches on back. Guitar looks new - not bad for a 77.
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eno
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Re: We who love Japanese classical guitars - Delcamp

Post by eno » Sun Jul 30, 2017 1:08 am

Looks great! I decided to go further on my C136S: since the action is very high I removed the bridge and shaved it on top and bottom and now I'm scraping the top finish. I want to thin the top a little bit and to refinish with French polish to improve the sound.
Regarding the scale, may be the newer C132 has 650 but older ones had 660?

Mine also has parallel bracing, so it's actually not the exact copy of Ramires, this is obviously the influence of Kohno (who was the Takamine co-owner and supervisor).
Paulino Bernabe 'India' 2001
Masaru Kohno No.6 1967
Rokutaro Nakade 1967
Mitsuru Tamura No.800 1969

SteveL123
Posts: 365
Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2017 5:05 pm

Re: We who love Japanese classical guitars - Delcamp

Post by SteveL123 » Sun Jul 30, 2017 2:38 am

eno wrote:
Sun Jul 30, 2017 1:08 am
Looks great! I decided to go further on my C136S: since the action is very high I removed the bridge and shaved it on top and bottom and now I'm scraping the top finish. I want to thin the top a little bit and to refinish with French polish to improve the sound.
Regarding the scale, may be the newer C132 has 650 but older ones had 660?

Mine also has parallel bracing, so it's actually not the exact copy of Ramires, this is obviously the influence of Kohno (who was the Takamine co-owner and supervisor).
Are you starting a new thread on the C136S operation? What are you using to measure top thickness as you thin? Here's a good thread you may find useful viewtopic.php?t=45375

I still have a lot of research to do and tools to gather before I start on mine.

Here's a shot of the ladder bracing on my C132S. I was looking at the inside with a mirror and took a shot of the mirror with the camera. I should have put the camera inside the sound hole, probably would have a better shot.
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eno
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Re: We who love Japanese classical guitars - Delcamp

Post by eno » Sun Jul 30, 2017 3:32 am

SteveL123 wrote:
Sun Jul 30, 2017 2:38 am
Are you starting a new thread on the C136S operation? What are you using to measure top thickness as you thin? Here's a good thread you may find useful viewtopic.php?t=45375
I will be followuing James advice here. Since the top is already 2.7 I will just remover ~0.4 around the edges while checking the resonance

I don't have thickness caliper but I'll be following the method that Robbie O'Brien teaches in his online course "Classical Guitar Voicing" on how to voice the guitar top without any tools. The point is that the thickness is irrelevant by itself because voicing greatly depends on the wood stiffness.
Paulino Bernabe 'India' 2001
Masaru Kohno No.6 1967
Rokutaro Nakade 1967
Mitsuru Tamura No.800 1969

SteveL123
Posts: 365
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Re: We who love Japanese classical guitars - Delcamp

Post by SteveL123 » Sun Jul 30, 2017 2:13 pm

rinneby wrote:
Sat May 06, 2017 3:21 pm
Here's my Ryoji Matsuoka No.80 getting ready for French polish and other small adjustments. The top was in pretty bad shape, but nothing too serious. I expect it to be ready and shiny in about two weeks.

Image
Image
Image

/Jon
Hi Jon,

What's the original finish? It is much lighter with it removed! Is the French Polish done? How's it look and sound? Pics?

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rinneby
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Re: We who love Japanese classical guitars - Delcamp

Post by rinneby » Sun Jul 30, 2017 5:45 pm

SteveL123 wrote:
Sun Jul 30, 2017 2:13 pm
Hi Jon,

What's the original finish? It is much lighter with it removed! Is the French Polish done? How's it look and sound? Pics?
The original finish was a thick layer of orange colored nitrocellulose. You can see the result on page 13 of this thread. The sound became a little softer/rounder after the new finish. The Matsuoka No.80 is pretty heavy built and haven't been played very much, for this reason I feel the sound is a little "boxed in" so to speak. Like the sounds stays inside the guitar. I think it needs to be played for a few month or so to really come alive. Great potential though, I just have too many other guitars to play at the moment. Do I recommend getting a No.80? Well, it's a Ramirez type guitar, big bodied, slightly bigger body than an original 1A actually, but with "weaker" sound overall and 650 scale neck. My Yairi YC-250 challenge my Ramirez 1A way better, but the Yairi is a little brighter with more midrange and less "fat sound". Both guitars are very loud and powerful. But who knows what the Matsuoka can deliver with some play time? Right now I keep it just because it looks so damn cool.
:guitare:
All the best from Sweden.

/Jon
Last edited by rinneby on Mon Jul 31, 2017 5:10 am, edited 2 times in total.
1965 - Masaru Kono No.5
1975 - Atushi Nakamura No.15
1977 - Kuniharu Nobe No.15
1987 - Curt Claus Voigt
1996 - Masaru Kohno Maestro

Feel free to ask me anything about Japanese classical guitars.

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andreas777
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Re: We who love Japanese classical guitars - Delcamp

Post by andreas777 » Sun Jul 30, 2017 6:12 pm

rinneby wrote:
Thu Jul 27, 2017 3:58 pm
Anyone of you lovers heard of Asturias "Concert" C15? This guitar was made in the late 70s and bought in Sweden back then. The one and only owner wants to sell it to me. I will try it on Sunday. Happy times!
Hi Jon, did you have a chance to see and play the guitar today?
21 classical guitars, soon 22 :-D, 1 digital piano - no TV, no radio

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rinneby
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Re: We who love Japanese classical guitars - Delcamp

Post by rinneby » Sun Jul 30, 2017 6:55 pm

andreas777 wrote:
Sun Jul 30, 2017 6:12 pm
rinneby wrote:
Thu Jul 27, 2017 3:58 pm
Anyone of you lovers heard of Asturias "Concert" C15? This guitar was made in the late 70s and bought in Sweden back then. The one and only owner wants to sell it to me. I will try it on Sunday. Happy times!
Hi Jon, did you have a chance to see and play the guitar today?
Yes, I did. The guitar looked really nice and the sound was ok. 650/50 mm and fairly easy to play, even though the action was 5/4mm, much room on the saddle to lower, so no worries there. Solid top, back/sides were laminated BR. However, there was a beginning "crack" where the neck meets the body, thanks to the dovetail construction. I figured it might need a neck-reset to get proper fixed (not just a quick-fix with glue) - So I passed on it. If the sound was really something I might have bought it anyway, but it wasn't.

/Jon
1965 - Masaru Kono No.5
1975 - Atushi Nakamura No.15
1977 - Kuniharu Nobe No.15
1987 - Curt Claus Voigt
1996 - Masaru Kohno Maestro

Feel free to ask me anything about Japanese classical guitars.

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andreas777
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Location: Germany

Re: We who love Japanese classical guitars - Delcamp

Post by andreas777 » Sun Jul 30, 2017 7:14 pm

rinneby wrote:
Sun Jul 30, 2017 6:55 pm
andreas777 wrote:
Sun Jul 30, 2017 6:12 pm
rinneby wrote:
Thu Jul 27, 2017 3:58 pm
Anyone of you lovers heard of Asturias "Concert" C15? This guitar was made in the late 70s and bought in Sweden back then. The one and only owner wants to sell it to me. I will try it on Sunday. Happy times!
Hi Jon, did you have a chance to see and play the guitar today?
Yes, I did. The guitar looked really nice and the sound was ok. 650/50 mm and fairly easy to play, even though the action was 5/4mm, much room on the saddle to lower, so no worries there. Solid top, back/sides were laminated BR. However, there was a beginning "crack" where the neck meets the body, thanks to the dovetail construction. I figured it might need a neck-reset to get proper fixed (not just a quick-fix with glue) - So I passed on it. If the sound was really something I might have bought it anyway, but it wasn't.

/Jon
Thank you for the description. The 50mm nut would already be show-stopper for my fat finger tips, independent on the crack.
21 classical guitars, soon 22 :-D, 1 digital piano - no TV, no radio

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rinneby
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Re: We who love Japanese classical guitars - Delcamp

Post by rinneby » Sun Jul 30, 2017 7:15 pm

andreas777 wrote:
Sun Jul 30, 2017 7:14 pm
rinneby wrote:
Sun Jul 30, 2017 6:55 pm
andreas777 wrote:
Sun Jul 30, 2017 6:12 pm

Hi Jon, did you have a chance to see and play the guitar today?
Yes, I did. The guitar looked really nice and the sound was ok. 650/50 mm and fairly easy to play, even though the action was 5/4mm, much room on the saddle to lower, so no worries there. Solid top, back/sides were laminated BR. However, there was a beginning "crack" where the neck meets the body, thanks to the dovetail construction. I figured it might need a neck-reset to get proper fixed (not just a quick-fix with glue) - So I passed on it. If the sound was really something I might have bought it anyway, but it wasn't.

/Jon
Thank you for the description. The 50mm nut would already be show-stopper for my fat finger tips, independent on the crack.
How do you feel about a Ramirez 1A - 54/664 for example? I quite like mine, you need to work the guitar in a good way.

/Jon
1965 - Masaru Kono No.5
1975 - Atushi Nakamura No.15
1977 - Kuniharu Nobe No.15
1987 - Curt Claus Voigt
1996 - Masaru Kohno Maestro

Feel free to ask me anything about Japanese classical guitars.

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andreas777
Posts: 481
Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2014 6:00 pm
Location: Germany

Re: We who love Japanese classical guitars - Delcamp

Post by andreas777 » Sun Jul 30, 2017 7:58 pm

rinneby wrote:
Sun Jul 30, 2017 7:15 pm
andreas777 wrote:
Sun Jul 30, 2017 7:14 pm
rinneby wrote:
Sun Jul 30, 2017 6:55 pm

Yes, I did. The guitar looked really nice and the sound was ok. 650/50 mm and fairly easy to play, even though the action was 5/4mm, much room on the saddle to lower, so no worries there. Solid top, back/sides were laminated BR. However, there was a beginning "crack" where the neck meets the body, thanks to the dovetail construction. I figured it might need a neck-reset to get proper fixed (not just a quick-fix with glue) - So I passed on it. If the sound was really something I might have bought it anyway, but it wasn't.

/Jon
Thank you for the description. The 50mm nut would already be show-stopper for my fat finger tips, independent on the crack.
How do you feel about a Ramirez 1A - 54/664 for example? I quite like mine, you need to work the guitar in a good way.

/Jon
I'm a tall and skinny person but my fingers are shorter than average and my finger tips larger than average. Some months ago I posted a picture of my hand:
http://classicalguitardelcamp.com/viewt ... 82&start=3
I'm not sure if 53mm or 54mm is better for me, for my finger tips probably 54 but for my finger lengths 52-53. Philipp will use a nut width of 54mm for my guitar but the string spacing at the saddle will not be increased accordingly so I think there is only one additional mm at the 12th fret. The scale length will be 63cm what should fit the best for my fingers. I have serious problems with a scale length of 664mm. Two of my Yamahas (GC6D, GC10D) have such long scales but I consider them a collectible items anyway. My Hermanos Sanchis Lopez 1F extra has a scale length of 660 what is already too long for me. Independent on these metrics, I'm not a big fan of Ramirez guitars. But maybe it's a subconscious aversion against all brands that use a big name even for the lowest estudio models or brands that have a confusing model policy.
21 classical guitars, soon 22 :-D, 1 digital piano - no TV, no radio

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