We who love Japanese classical guitars - Delcamp

Construction and repair of Classical Guitar and related instruments
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andreas777
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Re: We who love Japanese classical guitars - Delcamp

Post by andreas777 » Thu Apr 06, 2017 11:49 am

rinneby wrote:Pm send regarding the Yamaha's./Jon
Thank you for your suggestions and the effort with the links. The two models, G-160 and G-220, were the top-of-the-line models of its time with solid tops, they are quite rare compared to other 'G' models, and I will wait with my purchase until I see one of these two models (in the right condition).
19 classical guitars, 1 digital piano - no TV, no radio

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rinneby
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Re: We who love Japanese classical guitars - Delcamp

Post by rinneby » Thu Apr 06, 2017 2:13 pm

andreas777 wrote:
rinneby wrote:Pm send regarding the Yamaha's./Jon
Thank you for your suggestions and the effort with the links. The two models, G-160 and G-220, were the top-of-the-line models of its time with solid tops, they are quite rare compared to other 'G' models, and I will wait with my purchase until I see one of these two models (in the right condition).
I'm not too familiar with the low end Yamaha's, but I'm sure some of them are nice. So a G-250 is inferior to a G-220, or even a G-160? It's certainly good to know!

/Jon
1965 - Masaru Kono No.5
1973 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.80
2004 - Lars Jönsson Torres SE 114

You are the instrument, not the guitar

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andreas777
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Re: We who love Japanese classical guitars - Delcamp

Post by andreas777 » Thu Apr 06, 2017 4:27 pm

rinneby wrote:
andreas777 wrote:I'm not too familiar with the low end Yamaha's, but I'm sure some of them are nice. So a G-250 is inferior to a G-220, or even a G-160? It's certainly good to know!
/Jon
The numbering of the Yamaha 'G' guitars is complicated! A higher number doesn't mean that the guitar is better, even a model number with an 'A' at the end might be completely different in quality compared to the same number without 'A'. For example, a G-225 is an entry level guitar but a G-220 is the top-of-the line model. The G-160 model was the top-of-the line model between 1967 and 1969, and the G-220 was the top-of-the line model between 1974 and 1976 (not regarding the exotic G-300 with cedar top). There were only a few 'G' models with solid top until 1977, and I'm basically looking for these guitars only.
EDIT: I just checked the lists of Yamaha 'G' guitars I have, and the G-250 model is missing there (only the G-250S is specified). I have to clarify this...
19 classical guitars, 1 digital piano - no TV, no radio

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andreas777
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Re: We who love Japanese classical guitars - Delcamp

Post by andreas777 » Sat Apr 08, 2017 9:14 am

It seems that the G-250 was missing in the Yamaha guitar list that I downloaded somewhere in the internet. Nevertheless, I have created an account at Buyee, but unfortunately they explicitly exclude any shipments with rosewood, and you have to confirm that you have read and understood this. :shock: I asked them if I can insist that they send me a guitar in case I bought one and it turned out later on (in their warehouse) that the guitar contains rosewood, if I accept all confiscation risks. Let's wait for their answer.
19 classical guitars, 1 digital piano - no TV, no radio

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rinneby
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Re: We who love Japanese classical guitars - Delcamp

Post by rinneby » Sat Apr 08, 2017 9:33 am

andreas777 wrote:It seems that the G-250 was missing in the Yamaha guitar list that I downloaded somewhere in the internet. Nevertheless, I have created an account at Buyee, but unfortunately they explicitly exclude any shipments with rosewood, and you have to confirm that you have read and understood this. :shock: I asked them if I can insist that they send me a guitar in case I bought one and it turned out later on (in their warehouse) that the guitar contains rosewood, if I accept all confiscation risks. Let's wait for their answer.
When you bid on Buyee, the seller (almost always) state if a hardcase is included, if not you shouldn't buy it. It is however possible to ask Buyee to contact the seller and ask for a harcase, this has worked for me. Besides this, Buyee needs you to accept their "special packing" alongside the shipping - This is a cardboard box with bubble plastic, very well done. No problems so far.

Regarding the rosewood they sometimes refuse to send guitars, sometimes they are not. I think this is more due to the seller, than the actual rosewood though. Almost all vintage classical guitars contains some kind of rosewood and Buyee knows this.

Feel free to ask me more questions, I know quite a lot about ordning from Japan at this point.

/Jon
1965 - Masaru Kono No.5
1973 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.80
2004 - Lars Jönsson Torres SE 114

You are the instrument, not the guitar

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Philipp Lerche
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Re: We who love Japanese classical guitars - Delcamp

Post by Philipp Lerche » Sun Apr 09, 2017 6:45 pm

Hey Jon !

Lately I watched (for the 3rd time) the documentation about Masaki Sakurai which you've posted.
That Sakurai bracing is not leaving my mind.
Do you have the same bracing system in your Kohno ? Sometimes called 2 way bracing pattern (?)
I'm thinking about to build a copy with all characteristics.
"If you spend too much time thinking about a thing, you'll never get it done."
Bruce Lee

Best regards
Phil

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rinneby
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Re: We who love Japanese classical guitars - Delcamp

Post by rinneby » Sun Apr 09, 2017 7:57 pm

Philipp Lerche wrote:Hey Jon !

Lately I watched (for the 3rd time) the documentation about Masaki Sakurai which you've posted.
That Sakurai bracing is not leaving my mind.
Do you have the same bracing system in your Kohno ? Sometimes called 2 way bracing pattern (?)
I'm thinking about to build a copy with all characteristics.
Hi Phil. The bracing on my Kohno is very different from the "modern" Kohnos and Sakurai from the 70s and forward. Exactly what bracing I'm not sure, but someone might fill me in on this one. My Kohno has a very Spanish (warm and deep) sound, more traditional some might say.

/Jon
Last edited by rinneby on Sun Apr 09, 2017 8:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
1965 - Masaru Kono No.5
1973 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.80
2004 - Lars Jönsson Torres SE 114

You are the instrument, not the guitar

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andreas777
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Re: We who love Japanese classical guitars - Delcamp

Post by andreas777 » Sun Apr 09, 2017 8:01 pm

rinneby wrote:Feel free to ask me more questions, I know quite a lot about ordering from Japan at this point.
Thank you Jon for your help. I decided to minimize the risk before I order my first guitar from Japan, so I will wait for the answer from Buyee to my inquiry. And I plan to visit the local custom office in the next couple of days and talk to the manager about importing old guitars that "may" contain rosewood.
19 classical guitars, 1 digital piano - no TV, no radio

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andreas777
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Re: We who love Japanese classical guitars - Delcamp

Post by andreas777 » Wed Apr 12, 2017 8:31 am

andreas777 wrote:
rinneby wrote:Feel free to ask me more questions, I know quite a lot about ordering from Japan at this point.
Thank you Jon for your help. I decided to minimize the risk before I order my first guitar from Japan, so I will wait for the answer from Buyee to my inquiry. And I plan to visit the local custom office in the next couple of days and talk to the manager about importing old guitars that "may" contain rosewood.
I visited a local custom office today, showed them one of my guitars - an old Yamaha GC with rosewood back and sides - and ask them what they would do if I import such a guitar. After some discussions I was told that they would withhold the guitar and contact the "Bundesamt für Naturschutz" (BfN, the German authorities responsible to enforce the new CITES rules). I know from this authority that they will not clear an import without import license (and export license required for the import license). I was also told that the 10 kg exception doesn't apply in my case, and they explained to me all exceptions. For me this means that I can't import any guitar from Japan without all required documents, or I have to find another custom office that interprets the CITES rules less strict.
19 classical guitars, 1 digital piano - no TV, no radio

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rinneby
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Re: We who love Japanese classical guitars - Delcamp

Post by rinneby » Wed Apr 12, 2017 8:34 am

andreas777 wrote:
andreas777 wrote:
rinneby wrote:Feel free to ask me more questions, I know quite a lot about ordering from Japan at this point.
Thank you Jon for your help. I decided to minimize the risk before I order my first guitar from Japan, so I will wait for the answer from Buyee to my inquiry. And I plan to visit the local custom office in the next couple of days and talk to the manager about importing old guitars that "may" contain rosewood.
I visited a local custom office today, showed them one of my guitars - an old Yamaha GC with rosewood back and sides - and ask them what they would do if I import such a guitar. After some discussions I was told that they would withhold the guitar and contact the "Bundesamt für Naturschutz" (BfN, the German authorities responsible to enforce the new CITES rules). I know from this authority that they will not clear an import without import license (and export license required for the import license). I was also told that the 10 kg exception doesn't apply in my case, and they explained to me all exceptions. For me this means that I can't import any guitar from Japan without all required documents, or I have to find another custom office that interprets the CITES rules less strict.
:shock: Let's just say I'm glad I don't live in Germany then. I guess Sweden rules are different. I wish you best of luck and keep us updated.

/Jon
1965 - Masaru Kono No.5
1973 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.80
2004 - Lars Jönsson Torres SE 114

You are the instrument, not the guitar

bullpuppy
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Re: We who love Japanese classical guitars - Delcamp

Post by bullpuppy » Fri Apr 21, 2017 6:27 pm

I have currently or had many japanese guitars from some of the major luthiers. In terms of the ramirez 1a sound the Matano, yamaguchi, cervantes sound almost identical. I was able to compare them side by side to a Rameriz 1a and they were equal or better. The models I had were clase 500, 600, 800, 1000 from years 1972 to 1980 Oddly enough was how consistant they are. I never had a bad one. All had great volume and playability.

My Ichiyaguchi was a very clear balance and loud. It has a sound all its own.

My kohno 1974 #10 was very good and had a lovely even tone. However I have a Kohno topped Aranjuez no. 6 that was better. I had other Kohno topped Aranjuez that were very good but not quite as good as the my number 6. It has a Spanish heel and the othersecond didnt.

My Ryoji''s were all very good. I have one m40 that is exceptional.

My 1976 komori #20 is very sweet, even, with trebles to die for.

I had the concert shananos, kurasawa, tarrega, hashimoto. Good guitars, not as good as the ones above.

I have many others too. All are 60 to 80. You can't get the same quality from Spain unless you spend a fortune, and even then is the differences that notable?

bullpuppy
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Re: We who love Japanese classical guitars - Delcamp

Post by bullpuppy » Fri Apr 21, 2017 6:31 pm

Just a question for the Japanese lovers.

What luthiers in Japanese luthiers make guitars with simular sound as Hauser or Fleta or bourchet in side by side comparison. Some have master Rameriz but how about the other big Spanish makers.

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rinneby
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Re: We who love Japanese classical guitars - Delcamp

Post by rinneby » Sun Apr 23, 2017 10:58 am

bullpuppy wrote:I have currently or had many japanese guitars from some of the major luthiers. In terms of the ramirez 1a sound the Matano, yamaguchi, cervantes sound almost identical. I was able to compare them side by side to a Rameriz 1a and they were equal or better. The models I had were clase 500, 600, 800, 1000 from years 1972 to 1980 Oddly enough was how consistant they are. I never had a bad one. All had great volume and playability.

My Ichiyaguchi was a very clear balance and loud. It has a sound all its own.

My kohno 1974 #10 was very good and had a lovely even tone. However I have a Kohno topped Aranjuez no. 6 that was better. I had other Kohno topped Aranjuez that were very good but not quite as good as the my number 6. It has a Spanish heel and the othersecond didnt.

My Ryoji''s were all very good. I have one m40 that is exceptional.

My 1976 komori #20 is very sweet, even, with trebles to die for.

I had the concert shananos, kurasawa, tarrega, hashimoto. Good guitars, not as good as the ones above.

I have many others too. All are 60 to 80. You can't get the same quality from Spain unless you spend a fortune, and even then is the differences that notable?
Great reading Bullpuppy and I agree with all that you have to say. I sat down this morning and played my Matano Clase 600 and what an excellent guitar it is, so responsive and clear. I've never tried a Ichiyaguchi or Komri. Regarding the Matsuoka's I totally agree, they are really great, the "newest" I tried was from -83 (M50) and that too was very good.

/Jon
Last edited by rinneby on Sun Apr 23, 2017 11:42 am, edited 2 times in total.
1965 - Masaru Kono No.5
1973 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.80
2004 - Lars Jönsson Torres SE 114

You are the instrument, not the guitar

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rinneby
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Re: We who love Japanese classical guitars - Delcamp

Post by rinneby » Sun Apr 23, 2017 11:01 am

bullpuppy wrote:Just a question for the Japanese lovers.

What luthiers in Japanese luthiers make guitars with simular sound as Hauser or Fleta or bourchet in side by side comparison. Some have master Rameriz but how about the other big Spanish makers.
To my understanding the newer Matsouka's, like the top model M300 is Hauser inspired, but I could be wrong. Wataru Tsuji (earlier head luthier at Asturias) has a 1937-Hauser model.

/Jon
Last edited by rinneby on Sun Apr 23, 2017 11:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
1965 - Masaru Kono No.5
1973 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.80
2004 - Lars Jönsson Torres SE 114

You are the instrument, not the guitar

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rinneby
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Re: We who love Japanese classical guitars - Delcamp

Post by rinneby » Sun Apr 23, 2017 11:31 am

spronev wrote:Hello from one more lover of vintage Japanese guitars. Here is the list of guitars from Japan that I've had in the past. I've kept this to vintage guitars only (no later than 1990). I think that the later ones are not as good and I've had a number of them to compare.

1970 Yamaha GC-5 (two of them actually) - excellent sound, crisp and with good sustain (spruce)
1971 Kohno 10 (cedar) - balanced abd milder due to the cedar top, good sustain abd volume
1972 Aria AC-40 (cedar) - very nice and light guitar, built like a Ramirez but sound was livelier and more open
1972 Mitsuru Tamura 600 and 800 - recently bought (cedar): 600 is fan braced and quite light, 800 is Ramirez braced; both have warm Spanish sound
1972 Yamaha GC-6D (spruce) - crisp and crear sound but a bit too cold for my taste
1973 Aranjuez 6 (cedar) - built and sounds just like a Kohno from the same time but with a bit less projection
1973 Hideo Ida 10 (spruce) - very expressive and loud, good sound definition and projection, not as well balanced as Kohnos though
1973 and 1977 Masaru Matano 600 - still have the 1973 (cedar): Ramirez braced: warm Spanish sound
1975 Masaru Matano 500 - still have it (cedar): fan braced: warm Spanish sound, quite light
1975 Teruaki Nakade C15 - for sale right now :) - great volume and projection, very solid sound better then most professional-level guitars I've played
1975 Kazuo Yairi CY-130 - (cedar) - built just like a Ramirez and sounds just like one from the same time period
1976 Msaki Sakurai 10 - (spruce) balanced with good sustain and unexpected softness for a spruce top
1977 Mitsuru Tamura 3000 - (spruce) this one had a very high quality sound: balance, projection, ability to vary the sound, etc
1980 Cervantes 500 (cedar) - built and sounds just like a Ramirez from the same time, very nice guitar for the money
1980 Yamaha GC-30B (spruce) - needless to say, a professional sounding guitar but for the money (and less money) others can be had too
1980 Cervantes 800 (cedar) - built and sounds just like a Ramirez from the same time but not as well balanced as others from this shop I've had
1981 Takeo Koba (cedar) - built and sounds just like a Ramirez from the same time, very nice guitar for the money
1982 Kohno Concert (spruce) - not as good as 1970s Kohno guitars I've had and played but still a very good guitar, less balanced
1984 Yamaha GC-10C (cedar) - very nice guitar for the money with good volume and sustain
1984 Yamaha GC-15 (spruce) - very nice guitar for the money with good volume and sustain
1988 Kazuo Yairi CY-140 - (cedar) - built just like a Ramirez and sounds just like one from the same time period
1989 Asturias AST-100 - (cedar) - built like a Ramirez but sound was tighter and crisper, not as soft

Svilen
Have you ever come across a Masaji Nobe? Heard good things about this very luthier.

/Jon
Last edited by rinneby on Sun Apr 23, 2017 12:45 pm, edited 2 times in total.
1965 - Masaru Kono No.5
1973 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.80
2004 - Lars Jönsson Torres SE 114

You are the instrument, not the guitar

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