Guitar tuning winding shafts.

Construction and repair of Classical Guitar and related instruments
amezcua
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Guitar tuning winding shafts.

Postby amezcua » Wed Apr 12, 2017 6:08 pm

Something not mentioned a lot but a basic item .What is a winding shaft in a guitar tuner made of ? Surely factories have discovered a way to make a guitar worse by using some totally unsuitable material like plastic . If they are made of bone it will need lots of handling compared to a plastic production .How do they get around that one ? Would plastic undermine the sound quality ? Surely a factory would leap at the chance to spoil it all for us .

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pogmoor
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Re: Guitar tuning winding shafts.

Postby pogmoor » Wed Apr 12, 2017 6:59 pm

amezcua wrote:Would plastic undermine the sound quality?

No.
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rojarosguitar
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Re: Guitar tuning winding shafts.

Postby rojarosguitar » Wed Apr 12, 2017 7:35 pm

Mostly they are made from some kind of plastic. In some expensive tuners they are made from buffalo horn.
It's difficult to make any objective comparison for quite obvious reasons, so probably we will never know whether with all other things kept same and only different roller materials the sound would change or not. But I think that as long they are reasonably weighted and well made it doesn't really matter.

Important factors are that they shouldn't be too brittle (saw that, the string holes chipped out) and not too soft (strings quickly cutting deep groves into them and also maybe to much damping) and the string holes should be rounded and not sharp-edged (strings will break).

Probably the biggest influence in terms of sound (for better or worse) is the total weight of the tuners.
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bacsidoan
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Re: Guitar tuning winding shafts.

Postby bacsidoan » Wed Apr 12, 2017 8:25 pm

The newest Gotoh Premium, KG01-CA, has the base plate and the rollers made of carbon fiber

KOUGA-Inside-EN-s.jpg
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Pete Beer
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Re: Guitar tuning winding shafts.

Postby Pete Beer » Wed Apr 12, 2017 8:42 pm

You do know that the strings are made of plastic, don't you?

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rojarosguitar
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Re: Guitar tuning winding shafts.

Postby rojarosguitar » Thu Apr 13, 2017 5:49 am

Pete Beer wrote:You do know that the strings are made of plastic, don't you?

What? I play only buffalo horn strings! :lol:
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rojarosguitar
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Re: Guitar tuning winding shafts.

Postby rojarosguitar » Thu Apr 13, 2017 5:51 am

bacsidoan wrote:The newest Gotoh Premium, KG01-CA, has the base plate and the rollers made of carbon fiber

KOUGA-Inside-EN-s.jpg


That compensates probably the extra weight of the roller ball bearings... Without ball bearings it would probably be a very light tuner - great for flamencas...
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guitarseller345645
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Re: Guitar tuning winding shafts.

Postby guitarseller345645 » Thu Apr 13, 2017 6:35 am

There are tuners with metal shafts - though I imagine that the player's left hand would get tired quickly when tuning (since the shafts are so thin that many more turns would be needed).
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rojarosguitar
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Re: Guitar tuning winding shafts.

Postby rojarosguitar » Thu Apr 13, 2017 6:49 am

guitarseller345645 wrote:There are tuners with metal shafts - though I imagine that the player's left hand would get tired quickly when tuning (since the shafts are so thin that many more turns would be needed).

As far as I know they only have been used on German or Austrian 'Wandergitarre' or other folklore instruments (or maybe also for the same purpose in the USA). Yes, the metal rollers are either very thin, if they are massive, and require a lot of winding, or they are made hollow and are quite sharp-edged. Not really in use these days on CG...

Before there were all these kinds of modern plastic they were made either of horn or bone, or from celluloid (which is a kind of 'natural plastic'). I once had an early Oscar Teller that has this kind of crackly celluloid rollers.
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Les Backshall
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Re: Guitar tuning winding shafts.

Postby Les Backshall » Thu Apr 13, 2017 8:01 am

guitarseller345645 wrote:There are tuners with metal shafts - though I imagine that the player's left hand would get tired quickly when tuning (since the shafts are so thin that many more turns would be needed).


Gotoh premium 510 series have hollow aluminium rollers. No difference in how they work, but not as aesthetically pleasing to my mind.

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pogmoor
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Re: Guitar tuning winding shafts.

Postby pogmoor » Thu Apr 13, 2017 8:07 am

rojarosguitar wrote:As far as I know they only have been used on German or Austrian 'Wandergitarre' or other folklore instruments (or maybe also for the same purpose in the USA). Yes, the metal rollers are either very thin, if they are massive, and require a lot of winding, or they are made hollow and are quite sharp-edged. Not really in use these days on CG...

...but certainly used in the past. My first guitar, a cheap Tatay given to me by my uncle back in the 1960s, had metal tuner shafts. They were about 2/3 the diameter of modern tuner shafts and worked perfectly well.

rojarosguitar wrote:... or from celluloid (which is a kind of 'natural plastic')...

No more a 'natural plastic' than polythene! Polythene is a synthetic product made from petroleum which is derived from ancient plant material; Cellulose is a synthetic product made from cellulose nitrate and camphor, both derived from plant material. What's the difference?
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Les Backshall
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Re: Guitar tuning winding shafts.

Postby Les Backshall » Thu Apr 13, 2017 8:13 am

Schaller Grandtune rollers in 'ivoroid' look better than the plain jane plastic.

schaller-05.jpg


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pogmoor
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Re: Guitar tuning winding shafts.

Postby pogmoor » Thu Apr 13, 2017 8:43 am

Les Backshall wrote:Schaller Grandtune rollers in 'ivoroid' look better than the plain jane plastic.

The metal collars on the holes look a good idea. I believe 'ivoroid' is in fact celluloid.
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Yamaha SLG 130NW silent classical guitar (2014)

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rojarosguitar
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Re: Guitar tuning winding shafts.

Postby rojarosguitar » Thu Apr 13, 2017 8:48 am

Les Backshall wrote:Schaller Grandtune rollers in 'ivoroid' look better than the plain jane plastic.

schaller-05.jpg

Les

True, they look quite good! There are some very nice materials these days. Another one is made from Casein if I remember right, called Galalith. Mundo Flamenco in Freiburg has cejillas made from Galalith and they look gorgeous, like 'natural' materials, and are very durable. Easy to work on, too.
I have one, it's very light and fells very nice to put on...

Maybe another material for really cool looking tuner rollers?
csm_Kapo_Galalith_elfenbein_368fe2e6b9.jpg

csm_Kapo_Bernstein_bdb69dc805.jpg

csm_Kapo_Galalith_grau_e948c46fd8.jpg
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rojarosguitar
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Re: Guitar tuning winding shafts.

Postby rojarosguitar » Thu Apr 13, 2017 8:52 am

pogmoor wrote:
rojarosguitar wrote:... or from celluloid (which is a kind of 'natural plastic')...

No more a 'natural plastic' than polythene! Polythene is a synthetic product made from petroleum which is derived from ancient plant material; Cellulose is a synthetic product made from cellulose nitrate and camphor, both derived from plant material. What's the difference?

:lol:
No difference in the end, but celluloid existed long before the whole 'organic chemistry industry' started to synthesize all these plastics in industrial scale. I wasn't not implying any big philosophical Idea of 'NATURE' here :lol:
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