Ramirez 1A Scale 665mm vs 650mm

Construction and repair of Classical Guitar and related instruments
Echi
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Re: Ramirez 1A Scale 665mm vs 650mm

Post by Echi » Wed May 03, 2017 1:58 pm

Of course Ramirez still makes also a model with 664 mm diapason and all the features of Segovia's guitar.
The main point is that today the standard is 650 mm while for many years Ramirez claimed the superiority of the longer diapason, followed by many luthiers.

Grooveman JS
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Re: Ramirez 1A Scale 665mm vs 650mm

Post by Grooveman JS » Thu May 04, 2017 2:34 am

Echi wrote:
Wed May 03, 2017 1:58 pm
Of course Ramirez still makes also a model with 664 mm diapason and all the features of Segovia's guitar.
The main point is that today the standard is 650 mm while for many years Ramirez claimed the superiority of the longer diapason, followed by many luthiers.
Ummmm ....."....features of Segovia's guitar".......i suspect the 664 scale length has got to do more with Segovia than anything else.......
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Grooveman JS
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Re: Ramirez 1A Scale 665mm vs 650mm

Post by Grooveman JS » Thu May 04, 2017 2:43 am

As a matter of interest, Below is an excerpt from an article in vintagekohnoguitars.com

< <James Bishops-Edwards writes this on Kohno

I think Kohno was making a more playable and musical guitar than the 70's and 80's Ramirez, but you can see the influence in the string length, ebony neck reinforcement strips, and other nuances. I had a 1982 664mm string length Ramirez that gave me tendinitis which was seriously debilitating, and my hands are good sized and fingers are sturdy. I like a good Ramirez but the influence of Segovia's big hands on the neck width and string length was a bad turn in the history of guitar making. Many people struggled, and still do, to play the Spanish 2x4 neck of that period. Kohno must have been influenced by the marketplace, but he made a more interesting and playable guitar than the Spaniards within that paradigm, in my (newly formed) opinion. I studied for awhile with Ray Reussner, who studied with Segovia in the 60's and beyond. He said he asked Segovia once why he switched from the Hauser to Ramirez, and although I'm sure Spanish pride had something to do with it, Segovia's answer was the Hauser neck was too small now. So one man's large hands influenced a generation of Spanish makers; wild. I remember a Japanese student of Parkening's in the 70's struggling mightily with his big Ramirez. On the other hand we're lucky; if Segovia had started touring the world with a new Kohno in 1963, the 60's Kohno's would be (if you could get one) in the $40,000 and up price range. So we can thank the Spanish tradition for the part it played in Kohno's work, and Segovia for distracting the world in the direction of Ramirez. :) Thanks again for your website and knowledge; I was fortunate to discover it. >>
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montana
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Re: Ramirez 1A Scale 665mm vs 650mm

Post by montana » Thu May 04, 2017 5:02 am

celestemcc wrote:
Fri Apr 28, 2017 3:59 pm
Someone correct me if I'm wrong... but nowadays the "standard" size for the 1A is 650, with the option of 664. It's the older 1As from the 60s forward that had 664 as standard. I don't know when they switched to the smaller scale, though.

Not a miscalculation: it was a deliberate effort to make the guitar's sound bigger and louder. Some people, notably those with larger hands, prefer the 664. One thing I did love about it was the wider string spacing for the right hand. But the 1A (older ones, I mean) is not known as one of the more easy-to-play guitars; my old teacher said mine was like "playing a 2x4". But it is what it is, and is beloved for that unique, characteristic, beautiful sound.

(For what it's worth, I play a 640 guitar now...!)
Can you switch back and forth between guitars or is that too difficult?

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Mark Clifton-Gaultier
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Re: Ramirez 1A Scale 665mm vs 650mm

Post by Mark Clifton-Gaultier » Thu May 04, 2017 8:33 am

montana wrote:Can you switch back and forth between guitars or is that too difficult?
I commonly use three guitars (often more) every day:

630 mm - an antique from 1840
650 mm - my main performing instruments
664 mm - my "work horse" guitar which I use whilst arranging/composing

There is absolutely no problem switching from one to another.

I am of short stature and have small hands but one of the easiest instruments I have ever used, is the 664 mm (Mikhail Robert). There are so many other variables than simply scale length to take into account that I believe it to be a mistake choosing an instrument on that basis.

Hand size (whilst maybe not insignificant) is also over-stressed - I suffered a severe arm injury about 18 months ago. My left hand and digits are obviously still exactly the same dimensions, but the changes at the shoulder have resulted in a significant effect on abduction in the fingers.

It is clear from this experience that technique and whole-body posture are far more significant than string length in determining our ability to handle an instrument - one can observe this in youngsters, sometimes with positively tiny hands, performing perfectly well on full size guitars.

There might well be a case sometimes for investing in a better teacher before a different instrument ...

simonm
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Re: Ramirez 1A Scale 665mm vs 650mm

Post by simonm » Thu May 04, 2017 9:11 am

Remember that electric bass guitars have an 864mm (rounded). In comparison all classical players are wimps. :-) And steel string players every more so as the scales are even shorter than classical guitars.

Pat Dodson
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Re: Ramirez 1A Scale 665mm vs 650mm

Post by Pat Dodson » Thu May 04, 2017 1:14 pm

simonm wrote:
Thu May 04, 2017 9:11 am
Remember that electric bass guitars have an 864mm (rounded). In comparison all classical players are wimps. :-) And steel string players every more so as the scales are even shorter than classical guitars.
When I see a bass player playing Barrios' Mazurka Appassionata I'll accept that we cg players are wimps. :)

Grooveman JS
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Re: Ramirez 1A Scale 665mm vs 650mm

Post by Grooveman JS » Thu May 04, 2017 3:01 pm

Pat Dodson wrote:
Thu May 04, 2017 1:14 pm
simonm wrote:
Thu May 04, 2017 9:11 am
Remember that electric bass guitars have an 864mm (rounded). In comparison all classical players are wimps. :-) And steel string players every more so as the scales are even shorter than classical guitars.
When I see a bass player playing Barrios' Mazurka Appassionata I'll accept that we cg players are wimps. :)
:lol: :lol: :D ..........both the electric bass & the classical guitar are such different instruments; in concept & approaches even the usage...there's really no comparison
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bluesnik
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Re: Ramirez 1A Scale 665mm vs 650mm

Post by bluesnik » Thu May 04, 2017 4:00 pm

Man up guys! (and gals). Don't you want this beautiful tone that only a 664 Ramirez can give you.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WPkhkpzEU_U
2014 Ramirez 'Conservatorio' CD/IN
1975 Ramirez 1a Classical CD/BR
1976 Ramirez 1a Flamenco CD/CY

henders
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Re: Ramirez 1A Scale 665mm vs 650mm

Post by henders » Fri May 05, 2017 5:29 am

bluesnik wrote:
Thu May 04, 2017 4:00 pm
Man up guys! (and gals). Don't you want this beautiful tone that only a 664 Ramirez can give you.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WPkhkpzEU_U
Ok, I'm convinced!

simonm
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Re: Ramirez 1A Scale 665mm vs 650mm

Post by simonm » Fri May 05, 2017 8:20 am

bluesnik wrote:
Thu May 04, 2017 4:00 pm
Man up guys! ...
New expression for me. Can you explain what it means and where it comes from?

The usual US English vs Euro-English I suspect. At a guess it is sporting or military jargon/slang.

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Hotsoup
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Re: Ramirez 1A Scale 665mm vs 650mm

Post by Hotsoup » Fri May 05, 2017 1:23 pm

simonm wrote:
Fri May 05, 2017 8:20 am
bluesnik wrote:
Thu May 04, 2017 4:00 pm
Man up guys! ...
New expression for me. Can you explain what it means and where it comes from?

The usual US English vs Euro-English I suspect. At a guess it is sporting or military jargon/slang.
Here's the urban dictionary entry: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Man%20Up
It's never been one of my favorite expressions, but at least bluesnik included "gals." It's always sounded a little too gender-macho to me, but I often catch myself saying "you guys" as a 2nd person plural pronoun.. call me a hypocrite.

celestemcc
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Re: Ramirez 1A Scale 665mm vs 650mm

Post by celestemcc » Fri May 05, 2017 3:54 pm

Can you switch back and forth between guitars or is that too difficult?
I can do it (640/664) to a certain degree. The 664 is much easier to play now, because the 640 helped improve my technique. But large stretches and work on the higher frets is still more difficult than on the 640.
2015 Connor spruce/Indian rosewood
1978 Ramirez 1a cedar

Grooveman JS
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Re: Ramirez 1A Scale 665mm vs 650mm

Post by Grooveman JS » Mon May 08, 2017 4:37 am

bluesnik wrote:
Thu May 04, 2017 4:00 pm
Man up guys! (and gals). Don't you want this beautiful tone that only a 664 Ramirez can give you.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WPkhkpzEU_U
i tend to think its a function of that guitar & not the scale length(as in that particular piece) as we all know guitars made in the same batch, material cut with the same dimensions will still turn out different; its like a specific DNA so that piece is probably 1 of the gems ......as they say there're 664 gems there are also 664 duds; conversely there are also 650 gems & lemons
Last edited by Grooveman JS on Mon May 08, 2017 4:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Grooveman JS
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Re: Ramirez 1A Scale 665mm vs 650mm

Post by Grooveman JS » Mon May 08, 2017 4:41 am

After all the hooha with 664...... guitar makers still revert to 650 being the standard today....including none other than Ramirez :wink: :wink: :wink:
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