Ramirez 1A Scale 665mm vs 650mm

Construction and repair of Classical Guitar and related instruments
Elitista2
Posts: 49
Joined: Wed Jun 03, 2015 6:28 pm
Location: Italia

Re: Ramirez 1A Scale 665mm vs 650mm

Post by Elitista2 » Tue May 09, 2017 8:03 pm

bluesnik wrote:
Thu May 04, 2017 4:00 pm
Man up guys! (and gals). Don't you want this beautiful tone that only a 664 Ramirez can give you.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WPkhkpzEU_U


This is the Ramirez primera sound, not the 664 sound!!!
So this film doesn't prove that 664 is superior to 650!!
In fact many 1a traditional 650 have the same sound. There are bad 664 and bad 650 and good 650 and 664...
Probably there are little advantages in projection of sound.
2012 Ramirez Elite

bluesnik
Posts: 65
Joined: Thu Nov 13, 2014 11:02 am

Re: Ramirez 1A Scale 665mm vs 650mm

Post by bluesnik » Wed May 10, 2017 12:33 am

Are you 100% certain of that? (664 & 650 sound the same?)
2014 Ramirez 'Conservatorio' CD/IN
1975 Ramirez 1a Classical CD/BR
1976 Ramirez 1a Flamenco CD/CY

Elitista2
Posts: 49
Joined: Wed Jun 03, 2015 6:28 pm
Location: Italia

Re: Ramirez 1A Scale 665mm vs 650mm

Post by Elitista2 » Wed May 10, 2017 1:55 pm

bluesnik wrote:
Wed May 10, 2017 12:33 am
Are you 100% certain of that? (664 & 650 sound the same?)

There are little differences in my opinion, in playability and in projection. Very difficult to tell because , as i said, not every 664 or 650 has the same sound!
But your video only proves that a specific 664 guitar sounds good.
Regards
2012 Ramirez Elite

Grooveman JS
Posts: 212
Joined: Tue Jan 03, 2017 2:56 am

Re: Ramirez 1A Scale 665mm vs 650mm

Post by Grooveman JS » Wed May 17, 2017 6:32 am

Elitista2 wrote:
Wed May 10, 2017 1:55 pm
bluesnik wrote:
Wed May 10, 2017 12:33 am
Are you 100% certain of that? (664 & 650 sound the same?)

There are little differences in my opinion, in playability and in projection. Very difficult to tell because , as i said, not every 664 or 650 has the same sound!
But your video only proves that a specific 664 guitar sounds good.
Regards
+1 Exactly
Masaki Sakurai MA-RF
Antonio Picado Concierto DT

JohnH
Posts: 23
Joined: Thu Jun 01, 2017 12:53 pm
Location: Irving, Texas,USA

Re: Ramirez 1A Scale 665mm vs 650mm

Post by JohnH » Sun Jul 16, 2017 2:08 pm

bluesnik wrote:
Wed May 10, 2017 12:33 am
Are you 100% certain of that? (664 & 650 sound the same?)
As an outsider I'm mystified how a difference of only 14 millimeters can affect the guitar's sound much at all. There are many other factors such as string thicknesses, wood, wood thicknesses, etc. that influence the sound.

Pede
Posts: 68
Joined: Mon Jan 06, 2014 11:01 am
Location: Friesland, Holland

Re: Ramirez 1A Scale 665mm vs 650mm

Post by Pede » Sun Jul 16, 2017 2:24 pm

I do think that people are influenced by the historic story of the 665mm scale. If there is a difference it is in other factors like the builder and the used materials. I played both scales and own a 650mm 1a, which I liked the best.
Gert Petersen 2000, Spr-BRW, Felipe Conde FP17 Negro, Santos Hernandez 1932 S-BRW, Asturias 10 string s-IRW, Ramirez 1a Especial 2014, Bernabe M5 S, Bert Kwakkel Merula 1982, Baroque guitar by Martin de Witte

amade
Posts: 20
Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2016 8:39 pm
Location: Chicago, IL

Re: Ramirez 1A Scale 665mm vs 650mm

Post by amade » Fri Jul 21, 2017 4:11 pm

I doubt that the scale alone is the crucial factor. Ramirez 1a and 2a guitars from the 60s, 70s and early 80s have a wide neck, a 54mm nut, wide string spacing of at least 45mm, a fretboard that is slanted down on the bass side, and high action. Often the action cannot be lowered much below 5.5mm on the 6th string at the 12th fret. Have these same specs with a 650 scale guitar and it will probably feel almost identical. I've seen luthiers lower the action by modifying the bridge and saddle and by replacing the fretboard. Some also use a nut with a bit more narrow string spacing. One could make the neck thinner as well. When one thinks of how 17th- and 18th-century violins, violas and cellos have been modified to suit modern players, this is not so far-fetched. But as long as top dollar is payed for instruments in original condition, the only instruments that will be modified this drastically are 'beaters.' Which may be the best sounding and playing Ramirez 664mm guitars.
DJB

1966 Anselmo Solar Gonzalez (SP/Mahogany)
1970 Jose Ramirez 1a (CD/BR)
1972 Aria AC 40 (Masuro Matano, CD/IR)
1979 R. E. Bruné 13-course Baroque lute
1980 R. E. Bruné 8-course Renaissance lute
1990 Kazuo Yairi T-10 (SP/R)

DaveLeeNC
Posts: 186
Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2016 3:31 pm
Location: Pinehurst, NC, USA

Re: Ramirez 1A Scale 665mm vs 650mm

Post by DaveLeeNC » Fri Jul 21, 2017 10:11 pm

I saw an I interesting 1a a recently (do not recall where). It was a typical 664 length scale and someone had removed the nut and moved it up 14mm. And the fingerboard and frets had been changed for improved action and to correct the intonation. Anyone else ever run into this?

Dave
1984 Jesus Marzal cedar CG
1971 Sherry-Brener (Cedar) Garcia No. 1 CG
1975 Gibson ES-175D Achtop Electric
2016 Eastman AR905CE-BD Carved Archtop Electric

Grooveman JS
Posts: 212
Joined: Tue Jan 03, 2017 2:56 am

Re: Ramirez 1A Scale 665mm vs 650mm

Post by Grooveman JS » Sat Jul 22, 2017 7:40 am

Pede wrote:
Sun Jul 16, 2017 2:24 pm
I do think that people are influenced by the historic story of the 665mm scale. If there is a difference it is in other factors like the builder and the used materials. I played both scales and own a 650mm 1a, which I liked the best.
The historic aspect.....that's exactly my thoughts too.....i feel it got more to do with Segovia's big hands more than anything else........btw the standard for all Ramirez guitars are 650 scale now; anything else is customisation upon request.
Masaki Sakurai MA-RF
Antonio Picado Concierto DT

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