Getting a Brazilian Rosewood guitar in Switzerland

Construction and repair of Classical Guitar and related instruments
Rasputin
Posts: 570
Joined: Fri May 12, 2017 12:25 pm

Re: Getting a Brazilian Rosewood guitar in Switzerland

Post by Rasputin » Mon Jun 12, 2017 7:12 pm

guitarrista wrote:
Mon Jun 12, 2017 5:57 pm
Here is their Information for Private Individuals page where they state that for movement inside the EU (this is what applies to you, right?)
Switzerland isn't in the EU, hence the links above to the Swiss pages.

Mr.Rain
Posts: 77
Joined: Mon Dec 19, 2016 4:43 pm
Location: Dublin

Re: Getting a Brazilian Rosewood guitar in Switzerland

Post by Mr.Rain » Mon Jun 12, 2017 7:20 pm

guitarrista wrote:
Mon Jun 12, 2017 5:57 pm
Well did you look through the cites.es website? I am assuming you are in Spain (you don't really say it).

Here is their Information for Private Individuals page where they state that for movement inside the EU (this is what applies to you, right?) you need a CITES EU Certificate for Annex A species (such as Brazilian rosewood-containing guitar).

Here is the EU CITES Certificate page with the explanations a and a link to the application form.

They focus a lot on live animals etc., but in your case it should be pretty straight forward since you are only travelling non-commercially, you own the guitar, and you have a certificate showing it was made with pre-convention Brazilian rosewood (this is what the certificate you linked to is about).

All application forms are here.

Potentially there are two certificates that may apply - the personal ownership certificate, and the EU CITES certificate. I know they state it is the EU CITES certificate you need, but since they seem to have focused so much on live animals and exotic pets and there is no mention of musical instruments, it does not hurt to inquire as they may not have considered how this applies to a guitar.

In any case it should be pretty easy to get a certificate given your circumstances. I'd say both the personal ownership certificate and the EU CITES certificate could work from the point of view of Swiss authorities as an equivalent-to musical instrument certificate.
I'm actually in Dublin, lived here for ages...

I will call the local cites office tomorrow will check about the musical instrument certificate as its now normal in UK , so maybe here too...

User avatar
guitarrista
Posts: 982
Joined: Sat Jan 21, 2012 7:00 am
Location: Victoria, BC, Canada

Re: Getting a Brazilian Rosewood guitar in Switzerland

Post by guitarrista » Mon Jun 12, 2017 7:22 pm

Rasputin wrote:
Mon Jun 12, 2017 7:12 pm
guitarrista wrote:
Mon Jun 12, 2017 5:57 pm
Here is their Information for Private Individuals page where they state that for movement inside the EU (this is what applies to you, right?)
Switzerland isn't in the EU, hence the links above to the Swiss pages.
Appreciate that correction, but he still has to look at the Spain cites pages as well - in which case probably the personal ownership certificate will suffice, as explained on this page:

Capture.JPG

This is because his is a non-commercial, travelling with his "pet" (read guitar) situation.

EDIT: Plot-twist(!) - the OP is actually in Ireland. So see below :-)
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Last edited by guitarrista on Mon Jun 12, 2017 7:40 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Konstantin
--
1982 Anselmo Solar Gonzalez

Mr.Rain
Posts: 77
Joined: Mon Dec 19, 2016 4:43 pm
Location: Dublin

Re: Getting a Brazilian Rosewood guitar in Switzerland

Post by Mr.Rain » Mon Jun 12, 2017 7:23 pm

astro64 wrote:
Mon Jun 12, 2017 4:31 pm
Seems like it was a bad idea to ask....
I prefer to buy other guitar rather than to risk myself to get it seized, and a big fat fine :mrgreen: ...(up to 100k)

User avatar
guitarrista
Posts: 982
Joined: Sat Jan 21, 2012 7:00 am
Location: Victoria, BC, Canada

Re: Getting a Brazilian Rosewood guitar in Switzerland

Post by guitarrista » Mon Jun 12, 2017 7:34 pm

Mr.Rain wrote:
Mon Jun 12, 2017 7:20 pm
guitarrista wrote:
Mon Jun 12, 2017 5:57 pm
Well did you look through the cites.es website? I am assuming you are in Spain (you don't really say it).


I'm actually in Dublin, lived here for ages...

I will call the local cites office tomorrow will check about the musical instrument certificate as its now normal in UK , so maybe here too...
Doh! OK, Then look through the Irish CITES collection of pages.

It is a EU to outside-EU situation, non-commercial, personal property. The Irish are kind enough to give you specfiic names for contacts.

In general they list that you need both an export from EU and an import-into-Switzerland permits/certificates.

But talk to them given the particulars of your case.

The most you would have to do is get an export-from-EU certificate from Éire and an import-into-Switzerland certificate from the Swiss, before you leave.

However, if you can get the Irish to give you some equivalent-to musical instrument certificate/letter (re-usable), it will make it a lot easier, and it seem the Swiss are OK with that.
Konstantin
--
1982 Anselmo Solar Gonzalez

Mr.Rain
Posts: 77
Joined: Mon Dec 19, 2016 4:43 pm
Location: Dublin

Re: Getting a Brazilian Rosewood guitar in Switzerland

Post by Mr.Rain » Mon Jun 12, 2017 9:05 pm

guitarrista wrote:
Mon Jun 12, 2017 7:34 pm
Mr.Rain wrote:
Mon Jun 12, 2017 7:20 pm
guitarrista wrote:
Mon Jun 12, 2017 5:57 pm
Well did you look through the cites.es website? I am assuming you are in Spain (you don't really say it).


I'm actually in Dublin, lived here for ages...

I will call the local cites office tomorrow will check about the musical instrument certificate as its now normal in UK , so maybe here too...
Doh! OK, Then look through the Irish CITES collection of pages.

It is a EU to outside-EU situation, non-commercial, personal property. The Irish are kind enough to give you specfiic names for contacts.

In general they list that you need both an export from EU and an import-into-Switzerland permits/certificates.

But talk to them given the particulars of your case.

The most you would have to do is get an export-from-EU certificate from Éire and an import-into-Switzerland certificate from the Swiss, before you leave.

However, if you can get the Irish to give you some equivalent-to musical instrument certificate/letter (re-usable), it will make it a lot easier, and it seem the Swiss are OK with that.
Yeah, I already mailed them during the morning (right after getting the Swiss reply...),it's quite handy having their names :mrgreen:, no miss...

BTW everybody assumes I'm Spanish just based on the Cites :lol: , except, I guess my "American" French lad,who was not enough to prevent the assumption(after so many years I could easily hold an Irish Passport, which is redundant being already EU...)

User avatar
guitarrista
Posts: 982
Joined: Sat Jan 21, 2012 7:00 am
Location: Victoria, BC, Canada

Re: Getting a Brazilian Rosewood guitar in Switzerland

Post by guitarrista » Mon Jun 12, 2017 9:18 pm

Well I only assumed that because you were mentioning Spain while discussing your cites situation and oh, yeah, the cites doc being in Spanish :-)
Konstantin
--
1982 Anselmo Solar Gonzalez

Mr.Rain
Posts: 77
Joined: Mon Dec 19, 2016 4:43 pm
Location: Dublin

Re: Getting a Brazilian Rosewood guitar in Switzerland

Post by Mr.Rain » Mon Jun 12, 2017 9:31 pm

guitarrista wrote:
Mon Jun 12, 2017 9:18 pm
Well I only assumed that because you were mentioning Spain while discussing your cites situation and oh, yeah, the cites doc being in Spanish :-)

I'm actually Spanish :lol:

astro64
Posts: 691
Joined: Sat Aug 06, 2016 7:43 pm
Location: American Southwest

Re: Getting a Brazilian Rosewood guitar in Switzerland

Post by astro64 » Mon Jun 12, 2017 10:28 pm

Mr.Rain wrote:
Mon Jun 12, 2017 7:23 pm
astro64 wrote:
Mon Jun 12, 2017 4:31 pm
Seems like it was a bad idea to ask....
I prefer to buy other guitar rather than to risk myself to get it seized, and a big fat fine :mrgreen: ...(up to 100k)
I understand. But you have cites documentation and you are not planning on selling the guitar... and it is discouraging to see that even with that it still seems like a big fuss. Ask a bureaucrat if you need to fill out other forms, odds are the answer is yes.

Sharkbait
Posts: 45
Joined: Mon Feb 27, 2017 3:10 pm

Re: Getting a Brazilian Rosewood guitar in Switzerland

Post by Sharkbait » Tue Jun 20, 2017 4:15 pm

astro64 wrote:
Mon Jun 12, 2017 4:31 pm

Ask a bureaucrat if you need to fill out other forms, odds are the answer is yes.
That's because they have a vested interest- the fees you pay when submitting the form go towards paying their wages! :wink:

User avatar
rojarosguitar
Posts: 4241
Joined: Sat Sep 19, 2009 12:24 pm
Location: near Freiburg, Germany

Re: Getting a Brazilian Rosewood guitar in Switzerland

Post by rojarosguitar » Tue Jun 20, 2017 5:21 pm

Rasputin wrote:
Sun Jun 11, 2017 10:06 am
I think the best thing you can do is get in touch with Swiss customs (contact details on the CITES page).

I would be surprised if Switzerland had stricter rules than the EU or did not recognise a certificate issued by the Spanish authority, but there's only one way to be sure.
Recently I visited Aux Guitares in Basel and talked to the man running the shop. He has some Brazilian RW guitars. We talked about the issues connected with CITES in Switzerland, and if I understood him right, the rules in Switzerland are very strict.
Music is a big continent with different landscapes and corners. Some of them I do visit frequently, some from time to time and some I know from hearsay only ...
My Youtube Channel is: TheMusicalEvents

Rasputin
Posts: 570
Joined: Fri May 12, 2017 12:25 pm

Re: Getting a Brazilian Rosewood guitar in Switzerland

Post by Rasputin » Tue Jun 20, 2017 5:28 pm

Yes I didn't meant to suggest that the Swiss would be lax in any way but the EU implementation of CITES is already very strict. Plus with Switzerland being in the EEA you would think they would go for something frictionless.

Obviously, there's no substitute for asking the CITES guys :D

Mr.Rain
Posts: 77
Joined: Mon Dec 19, 2016 4:43 pm
Location: Dublin

Re: Getting a Brazilian Rosewood guitar in Switzerland

Post by Mr.Rain » Wed Jun 21, 2017 12:03 am

rojarosguitar wrote:
Tue Jun 20, 2017 5:21 pm
Rasputin wrote:
Sun Jun 11, 2017 10:06 am
I think the best thing you can do is get in touch with Swiss customs (contact details on the CITES page).

I would be surprised if Switzerland had stricter rules than the EU or did not recognise a certificate issued by the Spanish authority, but there's only one way to be sure.
Recently I visited Aux Guitares in Basel and talked to the man running the shop. He has some Brazilian RW guitars. We talked about the issues connected with CITES in Switzerland, and if I understood him right, the rules in Switzerland are very strict.

I am trying to get the musical instrument certificate... still waiting for the local cites office reply....
AFAIK rules are so strict the Luthier of this guitar, stopped selling guitars with BRW to Switzerland (his importer said it is a pain in the ass,so won't keep doing it, plus temperature/humidity changes were a risk, as guitars were held in customs for a while... so he didn't wanted to repair more cracks...)

Return to “Luthiers”