Need advice for new tuners choice

Construction and repair of Classical Guitar and related instruments
SteveL123
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Re: Need advice for new tuners choice

Post by SteveL123 » Mon Jul 31, 2017 1:45 pm

georgemarousi wrote:
Mon Jul 31, 2017 1:19 pm
sal wrote:
Mon Jul 31, 2017 12:02 pm
..
I turn the tuner and it is slow to change pitch. When it finally changes, it's often to much. I alternate between loosening and tightening until it's in tune.
...
hello all,

I have exactly this issue on some of the tuners of a guitar of mine, especially when I want to de-tune some strings. I noticed closer that what actually happens, is that some tunners don't follow my truns exactly, but have some delay in finally tunring the gear. Something fails within the axis of the tuner.

Can anyone advice me, is this something fixable ( i.e. can I tighten something? ) or I must look for new tuners? thanks ! :)
What's happening is there is too much friction in your tuners. The delay is from overcoming the friction before movement occurs, then it overshoots and turns more than you intended. This can be easily fixed with some lubrication. Some makers advise against oil (because it runs) and recommend grease which stays put. I like olive oil (used sparingly) because it does not stink nor gum up like other edible oil. Use a tooth pick to apply tiny drops to the 2 bearings on the worm gear, a few drops in the worm gear teeth, and a drop on the pinion gear bearing. Turn it a bunch of times by loosen/tighten to work the oil in. You'll be amazed by the before and after results. When done, take some tissue paper and blot off/ soak up the excess so it does not run (do not wipe since it will tear up the tissue).

SteveL123
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Re: Need advice for new tuners choice

Post by SteveL123 » Mon Jul 31, 2017 1:51 pm

petermc61 wrote:
Mon Jul 31, 2017 8:19 am
SteveL123 wrote:
Mon Jul 31, 2017 2:47 am
petermc61 wrote:
Mon Jul 31, 2017 12:09 am
Tuners most certainly can slip when they are old, particularly cheap ones.

Look at the Rubner and Gotoh basic models.
I am sorry but that is incorrect. Worn tuning machines will have slop, but cannot slip. With its design of worm (where the knob is mounted to) and pinion gear (where the capstan is mounted to), turning the knob turns the pinion. Turning the pinion will not turn the knob, therefore, it cannot slip. Do you have a pair of old tuning machines? Take a pair of pliers and try turning the capstan. You will not be able to.
It's only incorrect the way you define slip Steve.

If I turn the knob and the mechanism does not turn the tuner because the worm/cog don't properly engage (say due to wear or misalignment) then I call that slip. I suspect many people would think similarily.

Regards
Peter
Peter, it is not my definition alone. Maybe in Australia, slip means something different? What you call slip is called (over here) slop, play, or in engineering terms backlash

beanctr
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Re: Need advice for new tuners choice

Post by beanctr » Mon Jul 31, 2017 2:09 pm

Gotohs with the lyra, about $60 from Luthiers Mercantile International, nice tuners. First check the roller spacing, if its not 35mm you can get the same model in 39mm from Amazon. R
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SeanWinkler
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Re: Need advice for new tuners choice

Post by SeanWinkler » Mon Jul 31, 2017 2:29 pm

I second the recommendation to measure the roller spacing carefully. Current standard is 35mm between roller centers, but given the vintage and origin, you might have 36mm or 39mm. If you can post a photo, that might also help just to get an idea of the aesthetic you might want (I'm guessing the current machines are likely to be lyra style).
Remember Anthony Weller, please help. Contact myself or Aaron Green for details.

sal
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Re: Need advice for new tuners choice

Post by sal » Mon Jul 31, 2017 3:10 pm

Here is a photo
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Last edited by sal on Mon Jul 31, 2017 3:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Pat Foster
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Re: Need advice for new tuners choice

Post by Pat Foster » Mon Jul 31, 2017 3:16 pm

If I may jump in here, it could be that the slots in the nut are too narrow for the strings. When the tuner is turned, the friction at the nut can cause the string to bind until turning the tuner far enough makes the string "jump," and the string moves too far. I'm coming from the steel string side, but I'm guessing the same thing could happen with CGs. If this is the case, it's easily fixable by a repair person, taking only a few minutes to make the nut slots a little wider. A touch of parafin in the nut slot might tell you if this is what's going on.

Pat

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guitarseller345645
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Re: Need advice for new tuners choice

Post by guitarseller345645 » Mon Jul 31, 2017 7:53 pm

@georgemarousi

I have a set of branded tuners which do just that, and it was discussed here (please do a search).

It seems that it is just bad precision/manufacturing.

I am putting up with them because I do not feel like having more holes drilled in my headstock for new tuners.
Höfner HLE-SAZ
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SeanWinkler
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Re: Need advice for new tuners choice

Post by SeanWinkler » Mon Jul 31, 2017 9:55 pm

In terms of measuring the roller spacing, if you don't have a metric ruler with that resolution, look up "pupillary distance ruler" online. This is used to measure the spacing between your pupils for eyeglasses, but it's also a handy way to measure roller spacing! Just make sure your printer is set up to print at 100% without resizing or fitting the document to the page. It can often be easier to measure between the centers of the two outer rollers vs. two adjacent rollers (really, you're measuring between the centers of the screws holding the roller gears in place). If you get 70mm, then you have standard 35mm spacing. 72mm = 36mm roller spacing, and 78mm = 39mm spacing.
Remember Anthony Weller, please help. Contact myself or Aaron Green for details.

MessyTendon
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Re: Need advice for new tuners choice

Post by MessyTendon » Tue Aug 01, 2017 2:25 am

Wood expands and contracts with age...often times it is the roller that is not seated good. I followed the advice here and waxed my rollers, but I also waxed the hell out of the holes for the tuner with beeswax. Wax is a good lubricant and also filler, it helps keep the roller from slipping. I melted it and let it pool up and in every crevice...it made my tuners much smoother and got rid of the creaks.

That being said the AC-30 in the early years as you describe, is a very nice budget guitar and it comes in my list of budget killer guitars.

I would personally go with the Rubner tuners with the upgraded anti friction...they run about 66$...The plain brass plates are machined nicely...as in even and thicker than lesser expensive tuners.

These are the kind of budget tuners you might actually want to take with you to another guitar.

sal
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Re: Need advice for new tuners choice

Post by sal » Tue Aug 01, 2017 1:02 pm

Thanks for all of the great info and recomendations.
Regarding the "waxing"-what type of wax should be used?

I think I am going to purchase several of the types mentioned, and choose one which will not require drilling new screw holes. Definitely want good tuners, but want to keep it simple as possible. I hope finding new tuners which wont require new screw holes isnt like finding a needle in a haystack

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SeanWinkler
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Re: Need advice for new tuners choice

Post by SeanWinkler » Tue Aug 01, 2017 1:32 pm

Sal,
Check your private messages. I may have something that would work for you.
Remember Anthony Weller, please help. Contact myself or Aaron Green for details.

es335
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Re: Need advice for new tuners choice

Post by es335 » Tue Aug 01, 2017 1:34 pm

sal wrote:
Tue Aug 01, 2017 1:02 pm
... I hope finding new tuners which wont require new screw holes isnt like finding a needle in a haystack
It most probably will be even with a direct replacement!

Please have a look at the picture below, which shows van Gent tuners, which IMHO look very much like what is installed on your guitar but with different knobs. No change or upgrade, just a new replacement.
29-01-GP(goudgoud).jpg
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SeanWinkler
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Re: Need advice for new tuners choice

Post by SeanWinkler » Tue Aug 01, 2017 1:52 pm

Matching mounting holes can indeed be a headache. It seems that many of the more recent designs have the middle two mounting screw holes visually centered between the roller gear screw and the adjacent worm gear (like the van Gent above), but older tuners don't necessarily follow that aesthetic (the middle mounting screws look closer to the worm gears in sal's photo). Filling and redrilling isn't really all that bad. I just wish I knew of a good source for mahogany and/or cedrela toothpicks for a nice wood match when filling!
Remember Anthony Weller, please help. Contact myself or Aaron Green for details.

Keith
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Re: Need advice for new tuners choice

Post by Keith » Sat Aug 05, 2017 9:51 am

Sean, many cigar stores sell the empty cedar boxes and if you are lucky you can get one with an internal wall which you can shave off pieces to fill holes and keep the box intact. You can buy a box for the sole purpose for cutting up. Empty cigar boxes make great storage boxes for strings or just about anything else. Most cigar stores sell them for a dollar or two. If you live near Route 9 near Framingham there is, as I recall, a store that sells cigars and other tobacco products. I suspect there are a boat load of other stores as well.

Back to the original topic. One can get fairly inexpensive but good tuners from Taiwan via the bay which I have found work much better than the cheap variety with the hook thing (half bracket) that holds the worm. That said, if this guitar has remain almost unplayed for many years it might be a good idea to pull off the tuners, clean and lube them and check to see if the rollers fit through the holes without binding. The holes may need a light sanding and/or a little beeswax. Like most things, sitting around for decades is not all that good for something made to be moved.
be true to the one you love but have many flings with different guitars

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SeanWinkler
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Re: Need advice for new tuners choice

Post by SeanWinkler » Sat Aug 05, 2017 10:19 am

Keith wrote:
Sat Aug 05, 2017 9:51 am
Sean, many cigar stores sell the empty cedar boxes and if you are lucky you can get one with an internal wall which you can shave off pieces to fill holes and keep the box intact. You can buy a box for the sole purpose for cutting up. Empty cigar boxes make great storage boxes for strings or just about anything else. Most cigar stores sell them for a dollar or two. If you live near Route 9 near Framingham there is, as I recall, a store that sells cigars and other tobacco products. I suspect there are a boat load of other stores as well.
Another cigar box enthusiast! I do use these for storing strings and other odds and ends, but I never thought about using the internals for screw hole filler. Thanks for the tip.
Remember Anthony Weller, please help. Contact myself or Aaron Green for details.

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