Same bracing same sound?

Construction and repair of Classical Guitar and related instruments
printer2
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Re: Same bracing same sound?

Post by printer2 » Wed Sep 06, 2017 1:06 am

Alan Carruth wrote:
Tue Sep 05, 2017 4:49 pm
One of my students works at a place where they make extremely precisely machined parts for turbines. These can be used in superchargers for trucks, or as jet engines, or fuel pumps in rocket motors. Most of these parts are made of stainless steel. They have found that they need to test the properties of the metal they order: small and unavoidable variations from one batch to the next can cause problems in the finished parts. When you're pushing the envelope, small things count. Don't think we're not pushing the envelope.
I used to do the testing of incoming metallic materials when I worked for an aerospace company. Also did the testing of the heat treated batches. Some materials has some spread to their properties, some wre petty much bang on the same number.


So as far as not being able to get the same sound as a Hauser or the like, maybe Hauser would have preferred to get the sound of your copy rather than that of the original but he did the best he could with the wood that he had. :wink:
Fred

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Section_10
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Re: Same bracing similar sound?

Post by Section_10 » Wed Sep 06, 2017 1:29 am

GuitarB wrote:
Tue Sep 05, 2017 9:04 pm
Well, my mistake, i should say same bracing- similar sound. This is better. I know very well that even the same maker build 2 different guitars, they don't sound exactly the same. I just want to sound signature to be similar like clear like a hauser, or sweet and lyrical like the fleta.
It still sounds a bit general, so in this case I would say no. They will not sound the same. Bracing style seemed like the most important thing but it's far from it. Finding a $1000 Hauser copy 9.9/10 will not sound or play anything like a Hauser. It will simply mean spruce, small body shape and 7 braces. The more luthier built the better. Factory or workshop built guitars tend to be overbuilt and won't consider the factors I listed earlier. Young luthiers also will not have the experience of tweaking methods and thicknesses and may take years to understand a style of build whether it's Hauser or Fleta... it takes a while to understand what the luthier was trying to accomplish.
I've played many Hauser, Fleta, Rodriguez copies that weren't impressive up to the $6000 range....I don't believe in copies for this reason, I believe in makers that know what they're doing that sometimes choose to build in the style of a master luthier.

Even to answer the general questions, 'same bracing same sound'..I'd say no. You can find a five-fan French style guitar that has closer attributes to a Hauser than a Hauser clone, A Torres style guitar with the similar tone and power of a Fleta. Each of those factors I listed earlier has a say on the type of tone you're getting. It gets complex but the easy thing to remember is that there's never a given with guitars. They're still quite a bit a mystery to even luthiers.

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Trevor Gore
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Re: Same bracing same sound?

Post by Trevor Gore » Thu Sep 07, 2017 1:00 pm

GuitarB wrote:
Hi community, i am a beginner guitar player. I am wondering if you make a copy of famous model(friederich, fleta, hauser...) using the same types of wood, same bracing based on plan purchase from lmii, will you get the same sound or really really close to the original? Thanks!
I make guitars using a variety of bracing styles e.g. falcate, lattice, Fleta styles amongst others. But they are all recognisable as Trevor Gore guitars rather than a Smallman or a Fleta or whatever. That’s because, irrespective of the bracing style, I build to a particular philosophy and do particular things (like, just for one example, nut and saddle compensation to make them play more in tune).

Not all players prefer what I do “by default”, of course, so the “default” can be changed, but that’s a story for another day.

So, if you want a guitar to have a sound like e.g. a “generic” Fleta sound, you need to understand what Fleta (or Hauser or Friederich or Bouchet) were aiming for. What was his preferred sound? Or was e.g. Fleta (like me) building to his customer’s requirements with his build philosophy applied over the top of that?

Either way, you need to get into the head of the builder you’re trying to copy and then build to that philosophy, in that builder’s style. That’s yet another reason why building generic copies is problematic and far more involved than just copying the bracing and selecting the same wood species, before we even mention the material properties.

If you want to copy a particular guitar from a specific builder, you need to understand both the builder and how guitars work, if your intention is to produce a tonal copy. Acoustic guitars don’t amplify sound, they just resonate at a variety of frequencies (due to various modes of vibration) which stack together to produce the sound we call a guitar sound. To emulate a particular guitar, those resonances have to stack together in a very similar way to how they stack together on the guitar you’re trying to copy; i.e. all the corresponding resonances have to have the same centre frequencies (at least) and preferably the same “Q” and the same amplitude. If you can do all that, then you stand a chance of producing a guitar that sounds like the one you’re trying to emulate. The unfortunate fact is though, with just a few notable exceptions, that resonance information rarely, if ever, appears on published plans. And is why <name your famous builder here> copies are usually seldom more than visual replicants.
Trevor Gore: Classical Guitar Design and Build

Alan Carruth
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Re: Same bracing same sound?

Post by Alan Carruth » Thu Sep 07, 2017 6:07 pm

At one point I got into a conversation with one of the curators of the instrument collection at the Metropolitan Museum in NY. He was always getting calls from folks who want to make a copy of Segovia's '37 Hauser, which is in their collection. There are two sets of plans that specify slightly different scale lengths; I believe one set included the bridge compensation, while the other did not, so they vary by a couple of mm. The copyists are concerned to get that right. I mentioned that scale length differences of that order are far behind things like the density of the top wood and the resonant modes of the instrument in determining the tone, and he asked what I meant. I explained a bit about the sort of resonance measurements folks like Trevor and I make, and he said: "Why don't you bring your apparatus down some time and we'll get that information?"

As Trevor will attest, it's not that simple to get data that would be meaningful and could be usefully shared. I've been trying ever since to figure out how to make some sort of portable rig that would give lab-grade readings. Oliver Rogers had a small anechoic chamber made from a stand-up camper body on a pickup truck that he used to drive to violin maker's meetings to get measurements, but museums can be pretty fussy about having stuff leave the building. Subsequent conversations showed that some of the easy tests, such as Chladni patterns, were simply out of the question. For one thing a number of museums had a bad experience with somebody doing those in an irresponsible manner some years ago; leaving clamp marks on old harpsichords, vacuuming up parts of soundboard paintings when cleaning up the glitter, and so on. I can't blame them for being gun shy.

If we could come up with a simple and robust method for making such measurements that could be easily compared from one tester to another we could get a wealth of data on fine old instruments. CAT scans of old violins have revealed a lot of stuff we never knew, and some of that is being done on guitars. A CAT scan, for example, would reveal the density of the top on that Hauser, and since density and Young's modulus along the grain track pretty well in softwoods, it would set some useful constraints on the top of any copy. There is one violin maker, Martin Schleske, who makes 'tonal copies' using a laser Doppler vibrometer to characterize the resonant behavior of the instruments he's copying, and matching that as closely as possible. It is said to work pretty well. Some museums freak out when you mention lasers, though (too many James Bond movies), so....

GuitarB
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Re: Same bracing same sound?

Post by GuitarB » Thu Sep 07, 2017 8:03 pm

So, we known that hauser guitar is famous for that clear treble. How do the other luthiers hauser model somewhat capture that treble? Please colaborate. Thanks!

GuitarB
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Re: Same bracing same sound?

Post by GuitarB » Fri Sep 08, 2017 5:09 pm

What is a falcate bracing? I have never heard of that before.

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Trevor Gore
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Re: Same bracing same sound?

Post by Trevor Gore » Sat Sep 09, 2017 12:59 am

GuitarB wrote:
Fri Sep 08, 2017 5:09 pm
What is a falcate bracing? I have never heard of that before.
You don't have to look far! Eyes right....

More here.
Trevor Gore: Classical Guitar Design and Build

GuitarB
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Re: Same bracing same sound?

Post by GuitarB » Sun Sep 10, 2017 1:16 am

Trevor Gore wrote:
Sat Sep 09, 2017 12:59 am
GuitarB wrote:
Fri Sep 08, 2017 5:09 pm
What is a falcate bracing? I have never heard of that before.
You don't have to look far! Eyes right....

More here.
Do you have sound sample? Look interesting.

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Trevor Gore
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Re: Same bracing same sound?

Post by Trevor Gore » Sun Sep 10, 2017 8:33 am

GuitarB wrote:
Sun Sep 10, 2017 1:16 am
Do you have sound sample? Look interesting.
Here's one:


Youtube

...not that a YouTube recording of any make of guitar gives you an accurate impression of how it really sounds. Here's one person's opinion of one of my falcate braced guitars. If you search the luthier's section of Delcamp, the owner makes quite a few more very kind comments.
Trevor Gore: Classical Guitar Design and Build

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