Peones?

Construction and repair of Classical Guitar and related instruments
vesa
Posts: 446
Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2016 12:52 pm
Location: Sulva, Finland

Peones?

Post by vesa » Sat Oct 21, 2017 6:38 am

When using peones and pushing them together and not leaving a gap between them.
Do you glue them to each other or just to the top and the sides?
Do you taper their sides so that they fit perfectly to each other also in the curved areas?
Vesa Kuokkanen

Antonio Marin nr. 813 1995 (Bouchet)
Vesa Kuokkanen 2016

John higgon
Amateur luthier
Posts: 157
Joined: Sat Oct 12, 2013 5:25 pm

Re: Peones?

Post by John higgon » Sat Oct 21, 2017 7:56 am

Personally, I don't apply glue to the sides of the peones, but when you fit them there will anyway be some squeeze-out which will find its way between adjacent peones. I don't taper the sides or shape the face that abuts the guitar side, with the exception of the waist area. The curve in that area is quite pronounced, so some shaping of the blocks is necessary there. I know I'm probably being a bit lazy, but all my guitars have stayed stuck together using this method, which I guess is the point.

simonm
Amateur luthier
Posts: 6416
Joined: Sat Jun 27, 2009 10:22 am
Location: Germany, Würzburg.

Re: Peones?

Post by simonm » Sat Oct 21, 2017 8:12 am

I don't use them often but I leave a gap - I don't have them touching. When I consider photos I have seen, I don't ever recall seeing images that suggested they were deliberately glued to each other.

User avatar
Michael.N.
Posts: 6557
Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2007 7:28 am
Location: UK

Re: Peones?

Post by Michael.N. » Sat Oct 21, 2017 10:40 am

Why bother? Unless you are doing a more exact historical copy. Just put a slight gap between each one. The vast majority of the ones that I've seen using that continuous peone method don't look all that neat anyway. In fact some of them look like they've been thrown together, especially when not glued in sequence. If you use a little thin spacer between each individual peone it can appear virtually identical to a continuous kerfed lining. Ends up looking better and it's quicker to do.
That's how I did this one. Seems neat enough to me.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Historicalguitars.

User avatar
pogmoor
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 8808
Joined: Mon Nov 22, 2004 10:55 am
Location: Oxfordshire, UK

Re: Peones?

Post by pogmoor » Sat Oct 21, 2017 12:03 pm

Gosh, that's a new word for me - the first thing that came to mind was flowers - peonies! I'd always thought of them as kerfing blocks :)
Eric from GuitarLoot
Renaissance and Baroque freak; classical guitars by Paul Fischer (1995) and Lester Backshall (2008)
Yamaha SLG 130NW silent classical guitar (2014), Ramirez Guitarra del Tiempo (2017)

vesa
Posts: 446
Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2016 12:52 pm
Location: Sulva, Finland

Re: Peones?

Post by vesa » Sat Oct 21, 2017 1:23 pm

simonm wrote:
When I consider photos I have seen, I don't ever recall seeing images that suggested they were deliberately glued to each other.
Hi Simon. Here a pic from a Dammann guitar. It´s a bit poor quality, but it seems to me that the peones from the waist area towards the lower bout are glued together. Maybe a special case? His peones are really wide and the grain orientation differs from other makers.
Michael.N. wrote:
Seems neat enough to me.
Agree!
What was the size of the shim between the peones?
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Vesa Kuokkanen

Antonio Marin nr. 813 1995 (Bouchet)
Vesa Kuokkanen 2016

User avatar
Michael.N.
Posts: 6557
Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2007 7:28 am
Location: UK

Re: Peones?

Post by Michael.N. » Sat Oct 21, 2017 1:36 pm

Something like 0.8 or 1 mm. Bit of wood, anything. It's not as though it slow things down either, well not very much.
Historicalguitars.

printer2
Posts: 316
Joined: Sat May 02, 2015 9:20 pm
Location: Winnipeg

Re: Peones?

Post by printer2 » Sat Oct 21, 2017 2:02 pm

If you use a little thin spacer between each individual peone it can appear virtually identical to a continuous kerfed lining. Ends up looking better and it's quicker to do.
That is a great idea I think I'll try it. Not that many people look at the top inside. Up to now I have done a few guitars with the peones touching with glue squeeze out gluing them to each other. I never angled the waist area.
Fred

Dave M
Posts: 226
Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2014 1:39 pm
Location: Somerset UK

Re: Peones?

Post by Dave M » Sat Oct 21, 2017 4:15 pm

New word to me too. I thought they were tentellones...
Dave

gjo
Posts: 267
Joined: Wed Sep 16, 2009 8:48 am

Re: Peones?

Post by gjo » Sat Oct 21, 2017 5:43 pm

Dave M wrote:
Sat Oct 21, 2017 4:15 pm
New word to me too. I thought they were tentellones...
Some people simply call them glue blocks.

User avatar
geoff-bristol
Amateur luthier
Posts: 226
Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2014 6:31 pm
Location: Bristol - UK

Re: Peones?

Post by geoff-bristol » Mon Oct 23, 2017 12:07 am

Paeones - Peones - Never sure how to spell them - but I do like them. An ancient simple form of joint !

I make my own - The last three instruments have been cypress as I have a lot spare - and cypress linings and blocks smell good.
I keep all the ones from one length of strip together ( I stick them in little bags ) then lay them as a set. I make a new set for each guitar - as the strips sort of vary on my mood at the time ( tall and thin, short and fat ?)

If you saw them by hand on a small fence/block with a stop its quite quick. Mount them when cutting so the glued face is away from you and upwards - on a pull saw. This leaves the glued edges clean. I can't resist cleaning up the outer faces a bit - just a quick de-snot - which is a bit tedious !

Their shape needs some thought - as not being clamped they can be quite triangular - which is maybe best shape for a lining. When things are being clamped one has to stay mainly flat. I usually mark a pencil line along the strip before cutting, either at the base, top etc - different for each length. I then know I have the 90 deg corner inside - and the sets do not get mixed up !
Before sawing them up - I take a small chamfer off that inner 90 deg corner. so they sit better. I glue them with hide glue.

Douglass Scott
Luthier
Posts: 489
Joined: Fri Nov 09, 2012 5:44 pm
Location: Ladysmith, Canada

Re: Peones?

Post by Douglass Scott » Mon Oct 23, 2017 4:28 pm

vesa wrote:
Sat Oct 21, 2017 6:38 am
When using peones and pushing them together and not leaving a gap between them.
Do you glue them to each other or just to the top and the sides?
Do you taper their sides so that they fit perfectly to each other also in the curved areas?
Like others have said, if you're butting them against each other applying glue between or not is your choice. It's not necessary as squeeze out does the job well, but what matters is how you feel about it and after making a few guitars both ways what you prefer. Same goes for fitting tentellones against each other perfectly, purely your choice. Not necessary but if you like the idea of it, or the look, or think it would be efficient, fun, or cool to do, then that's your style.

John higgon
Amateur luthier
Posts: 157
Joined: Sat Oct 12, 2013 5:25 pm

Re: Peones?

Post by John higgon » Mon Oct 23, 2017 7:54 pm

gjo wrote:
Sat Oct 21, 2017 5:43 pm
Dave M wrote:
Sat Oct 21, 2017 4:15 pm
New word to me too. I thought they were tentellones...
Some people simply call them glue blocks.
I was wasting some time at work today, looking at the etymology of 'peones' and 'tentellones'. Peones is easy - it means foot-soldier or agricultural labourer (they were the same thing back in feudal times). Basically, you need a lot of them but they aren't very glamourous. I guess it's where we get the word 'pawn' from, as in the chess piece. I see how a glue block could be thought of in this way. 'Tentellones' was more difficult. My theory is that it's a corruption of the Spanish word for tooth, i.e. where we get words such as dentistry. Tentellones would therefore mean "Little teeth", which again makes sense. Someone will now tell me either that I'm completely wrong or that everybody knew this already!😉 I like "glue blocks", though, Gerhard. Is there a good German translation? ("Stickstucken"!?)

mqbernardo
Posts: 729
Joined: Wed Jun 29, 2011 9:30 pm

Re: Peones?

Post by mqbernardo » Mon Oct 23, 2017 9:20 pm

You're right about the ethimology. Sometimes this pops up from time to time. Dentellone is the Spanish word for dentil (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dentil) - the similarity is obvious. Peones does meen pawn and comes from the same root as foot - I take it because it works like feet for the sides, anchoring them to the ground (the top in this instance) - who knows? It could be anything really.

In Portugal we just call them blocks. Then again, most our instruments use continuous liners.

Cheers,
Miguel.

lamanoditrento
Posts: 5
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2017 2:15 am
Location: Brisbane, Australia

Re: Peones?

Post by lamanoditrento » Tue Oct 24, 2017 2:40 am

Douglass Scott wrote:
Mon Oct 23, 2017 4:28 pm
vesa wrote:
Sat Oct 21, 2017 6:38 am
When using peones and pushing them together and not leaving a gap between them.
Do you glue them to each other or just to the top and the sides?
Do you taper their sides so that they fit perfectly to each other also in the curved areas?
Same goes for fitting tentellones against each other perfectly, purely your choice. Not necessary but if you like the idea of it, or the look, or think it would be efficient, fun, or cool to do, then that's your style.
Also it may affect the amount of sustain as you either increase the impedance mismatach by having the peones closer together and therefore keeping more energy in the top after the initial attack or reduce it by having them further apart.

Return to “Luthiers”