Hard west african ivory

Construction and repair of Classical Guitar and related instruments
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petermc61
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Re: Hard west african ivory

Post by petermc61 » Sun Mar 19, 2017 10:01 am

John higgon wrote:
petermc61 wrote:Is there anybody on the forum in Georgia who would be happy to mail me a saddle (at my cost, of course)?
Wouldn't they then be involved in the illegal supply of Ivory? Why is it that material from exotic / endangered / extinct animals sounds so much better than other materials, I wonder?
I am not aware of that. Colosi's website says that as a seller he is not allowed to ship outside Georgia. I don't know the law that prohibits him from doing so and to whom that law applies.

Keith
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Re: Hard west african ivory

Post by Keith » Sun Mar 19, 2017 11:08 am

According to the FWS, as of last summer, one can sell within a state if the ivory is "legal" and, I would suppose, shipped into the USA through a legal port. The FWS says one can ship across state lines if the ivory is 100 years old, has not been modified post ban (1973),. etc.--meaning, it probably does not include saddles and nuts but more in the antique world. And then you have the original port of entry issue to deal with--something that was not in the mind set of most folks pre-ban. Remember, a lot of folks bought ivory trinkets and such and then flew back to the USA and landed in a "non-legal port". As to buying it and shipping across line, if a member buys it in GA and then ships it to a buyer in NY, or worse, outside of the USA, and the NY/non-USA member reimburses the member who bought it then it probably would be seen as selling across state lines only now it is a forum member who is trafficking illegal ivory. As for a non-reimbursement transaction, not sure how that would work but I am sure the Feds have the upper hand on this one.

Looks like a road trip to GA is in order.

https://www.fws.gov/international/trave ... swers.html
be true to the one you love but have many flings with different guitars

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petermc61
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Re: Hard west african ivory

Post by petermc61 » Sun Mar 19, 2017 11:51 am

Good explanation thanks Keith. A difficult situation.

Laudiesdad69
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Re: Hard west african ivory

Post by Laudiesdad69 » Sun Mar 19, 2017 6:32 pm

I have an ivory nut blank. I bought it from a supplier that gets it from an animal preserve. When an elephant dies of natural causes, they sell him the ivory and the proceeds are used to fund the preserve. It's been many years but some may still do this. There is always mammoth ivory of you have to have it.

Jack Douglas
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Re: Hard west african ivory

Post by Jack Douglas » Sun Mar 19, 2017 6:48 pm

Laudiesdad69 wrote:I have an ivory nut blank. I bought it from a supplier that gets it from an animal preserve. When an elephant dies of natural causes, they sell him the ivory and the proceeds are used to fund the preserve. It's been many years but some may still do this. There is always mammoth ivory of you have to have it.
I've never heard about that, but applaud the preserve for their approach. Thank you for the post.
Do you intend to use the nut?
Hauser III 2014!

Laudiesdad69
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Re: Hard west african ivory

Post by Laudiesdad69 » Sun Mar 19, 2017 7:03 pm

Jack Douglas wrote:
Laudiesdad69 wrote:I have an ivory nut blank. I bought it from a supplier that gets it from an animal preserve. When an elephant dies of natural causes, they sell him the ivory and the proceeds are used to fund the preserve. It's been many years but some may still do this. There is always mammoth ivory of you have to have it.
I've never heard about that, but applaud the preserve for their approach. Thank you for the post.
Do you intend to use the nut?
I am going to use it eventually. Probably in my Brian May when the nut is ready to be replaced. It only cost 20 bucks when I got it. It's from Guitarpartsamdmore.com

RedCliff
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Re: Hard west african ivory

Post by RedCliff » Sun Mar 19, 2017 7:19 pm

Laudiesdad69 wrote:I have an ivory nut blank. I bought it from a supplier that gets it from an animal preserve. When an elephant dies of natural causes, they sell him the ivory and the proceeds are used to fund the preserve. It's been many years but some may still do this. There is always mammoth ivory of you have to have it.
Elephant Jam? :lol:
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England

Keith
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Re: Hard west african ivory

Post by Keith » Mon Mar 20, 2017 12:33 am

I went to the guitar parts website. It looks like the days of ivory saddles and nuts are pretty much over. The article about elephant conservation fallacies was quite enlightening. The author made some very poignant points, especially the point that extinction could result because of conservationism.
be true to the one you love but have many flings with different guitars

Laudiesdad69
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Re: Hard west african ivory

Post by Laudiesdad69 » Mon Mar 20, 2017 1:43 am

Yeah Keith, I just went to Guitar parts website and there is no elephant ivory there anymore, only Mammoth. Like I said, it was years ago.

Jabberwocky
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Re: Hard west african ivory

Post by Jabberwocky » Mon Mar 20, 2017 11:50 am

C'mon, guys. C'mon. We are better than that. This thread has the unintended result of stoking desire for HWAI whether obtained through proper channels or usually not. I cannot imagine many people from populous nations with a record of being ethically-challenged and where the guitar is popular looking to obtain HWAI just because they want its magical tonal properties, the Western Elephant be damned. Did no-one read about the white rhino in a zoo being killed for its rhino horn? A zoo, for Pete's sake. Those who want it will get it, blanket ban or not.

Move to Georgia; the women are beautiful and the peaches are sweet. Otherwise, forget that the HWAI even exists. If we do not perpetuate the myth of its magical tonal properties demand will soon disappear. Somewhere out there there must be a better material than HWAI; it has not been banned and there is no myth-making about its magical properties yet so no demand

Try ceramic. Try TUSQ. Nobody can really tell.

Jabberwocky
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Re: Hard west african ivory

Post by Jabberwocky » Mon Mar 20, 2017 11:57 am

petermc61 wrote:
John higgon wrote:
petermc61 wrote:Is there anybody on the forum in Georgia who would be happy to mail me a saddle (at my cost, of course)?
Wouldn't they then be involved in the illegal supply of Ivory? Why is it that material from exotic / endangered / extinct animals sounds so much better than other materials, I wonder?
I am not aware of that. Colosi's website says that as a seller he is not allowed to ship outside Georgia. I don't know the law that prohibits him from doing so and to whom that law applies.
Bob Colosi's website did not state that he was not allowed. Bob Colosi's website states clearly that he cannot legally ship western african ivory out of Georgia. To wit, "Reminder.... I cannot legally ship Elephant Ivory outside of Georgia!". The illegal aspect of it was clear to me and stood out.

You do not have to know the law to know what illegal means.

I can obtain HWAI for all my guitars of I wanted to. I am not going to do so, not just only because it is illegal, it is unethical and immoral. But it is not about observing the letter of the law. It is about observing and respecting the spirit of it.

Spare a thought for the elephant.
Last edited by Jabberwocky on Mon Mar 20, 2017 12:26 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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petermc61
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Re: Hard west african ivory

Post by petermc61 » Mon Mar 20, 2017 12:09 pm

Jabberwocky wrote:
petermc61 wrote:
John higgon wrote: Wouldn't they then be involved in the illegal supply of Ivory? Why is it that material from exotic / endangered / extinct animals sounds so much better than other materials, I wonder?
I am not aware of that. Colosi's website says that as a seller he is not allowed to ship outside Georgia. I don't know the law that prohibits him from doing so and to whom that law applies.
Bob Colosi's wrbsite did not state that he was not allowed. Bob Colosi's website states clearly that he cannot legally ship western african ivory out of Georgia. To wit, "Reminder.... I cannot legally ship Elephant Ivory outside of Georgia!". The illegal aspect of it was clear to me and stood out.

You do not have to know the law to know what illegal means.
Thank you for explaining the obvious. In a democracy the way Governments restrain citizens from doing things is passing laws to prohibit actions. I get that.

My original question was really around whether this restraint applied to all persons in Georgia or only certain persons, such as businesses. Without having seen the legislation this was unclear. At no time did Bob say that it was illegal for anybody to ship a saddle out, or (for example) for somebody to take a saddle out with them.

Regards
Peter

Jabberwocky
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Re: Hard west african ivory

Post by Jabberwocky » Mon Mar 20, 2017 12:15 pm

But not obvious enough to you right, Peter? You said you were not aware. It was obvious enough to me.

I am not going to be coy about it: It is not about observing the letter of the law. It is about observing and respecting the spirit of it.

Nobody who claims to be well-educated can claim to be unaware of the situation with Western African Ivory and ivory, in general. It is disingenuous in the extreme.

Fess up. Apologise. Move on.

gjo
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Re: Hard west african ivory

Post by gjo » Mon Mar 20, 2017 12:34 pm

Although I do know that ivory depending on the country or region can be quite different in hardness I never heard or experienced, when it still was legal, that ivory from west africa was the absolut best material. I never worked with ivory that was harder than bone and I found ivory in general to be softer than bone.

My experience is that a well made nut or saddle more often can be an improvement than a badly made nut or saddle from a precious material. There are several varieties of good bone on the market - bleached, natural, vintage, oiled, ... - that provide a good variety of hardness or softness resulting in sometimes surprising tonal effects. We do not really need real elephant ivory.

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zupfgeiger
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Re: Hard west african ivory

Post by zupfgeiger » Mon Mar 20, 2017 1:04 pm

Jabberwocky wrote:
petermc61 wrote:
John higgon wrote: Wouldn't they then be involved in the illegal supply of Ivory? Why is it that material from exotic / endangered / extinct animals sounds so much better than other materials, I wonder?
I am not aware of that. Colosi's website says that as a seller he is not allowed to ship outside Georgia. I don't know the law that prohibits him from doing so and to whom that law applies.
Bob Colosi's wrbsite did not state that he was not allowed. Bob Colosi's website states clearly that he cannot legally ship western african ivory out of Georgia. To wit, "Reminder.... I cannot legally ship Elephant Ivory outside of Georgia!". The illegal aspect of it was clear to me and stood out.

You do not have to know the law to know what illegal means.

I can obtain HWAI for all my guitars of I wanted to. I am not going to do so, not just only because it is illegal, it is unethical and immoral. But it is not about observing the letter of the law. It is about observing and respecting the spirit of it.

Spare a thought for the elephant.
I never read such a fierce and wise statement on this forum concerning the ecological damages our demand for tropical substances causes. Nontheless it is half-hearted. Have you ever complained about, for example, the widespread use of Madagascar rosewood in the guitar business? Everybody familiar with the situation knows that due to notorious illegal logging the forests on the island are in serious danger. But luthiers continue to build and players continue to buy Madagaskar rosewood guitars without any compunction. Recently I watched a BBC programm about the the devastating ecological situation on Madagascar with a weak gonvernment unable to enforce the law. Fact is: Legal timber from Madagascar does not exist. Lesson learned: Elephants have a lobby, trees don't.
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