Best tuning machines?

Construction and repair of Classical Guitar and related instruments
JLV

Re: Best tuning machines?

Post by JLV » Thu Nov 17, 2011 8:30 pm

Presently I have 2 Rodgers (1 new + 1 reserviced so just like new), and 3 Alessi (new) not attached to my guitar. Anybody interested?

Hi Julian,

Could you post pictures of the new Rodgers and maybe PM me for price and conditions?

Best regards,
Jean-Luc

Marco.Silva
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Re: Best tuning machines?

Post by Marco.Silva » Fri Nov 18, 2011 12:53 am

I think the one's you can afford just like when you buy a guitar.

The other day, on that famous auction site, I saw an idiot trying to sell a guitar that was made by someone who supposelly has worked on the "hill guitars" shop, and was selling a brandless unfinished guitar. Other than the asking price was ridiculous for maybe a "good" guitar, what really caught my attention was the fact the tuners cost the seller $ 400.00! Go figure, if you were selling a $800 guitar would you put a tuner that's half the price of the guitar in it????

So, for you luthiers out there what is the price of a tuner in proportion to the final price of a guitar(and I mean your cost not retail price)? That's a better question...
Regards,
Marco
1967 & 1978 Di Giorgio Autor 3 Solid Spruce & Jacaranda
1946 Del Vecchio Super Vox II -Luthier Angelo Del Vecchio

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James Lister
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Re: Best tuning machines?

Post by James Lister » Fri Nov 18, 2011 9:06 am

msilva12000 wrote:So, for you luthiers out there what is the price of a tuner in proportion to the final price of a guitar(and I mean your cost not retail price)? That's a better question...
Just material cost, or total cost?

James
James Lister, luthier, Sheffield UK

Tarbaby (1953 - 2016)

Re: Best tuning machines?

Post by Tarbaby (1953 - 2016) » Fri Nov 18, 2011 9:31 am

JLV wrote:Presently I have 2 Rodgers (1 new + 1 reserviced so just like new), and 3 Alessi (new) not attached to my guitar. Anybody interested?

Hi Julian,

Could you post pictures of the new Rodgers and maybe PM me for price and conditions?

Best regards,
Jean-Luc
Sorry guys. :desole:

Please refrain from offering equipment to sell on the main forum. Mr. Delcamp does not allow it (except for whole guitars).

We do, however, have a PM function. :wink:

Alan

r_jor

Re: Best tuning machines?

Post by r_jor » Fri Nov 18, 2011 4:29 pm

Hi Jean-Luc
I think Gotoh have a good Price-quality-relation. they cost about 70$, work wery good and looks ok.
Rolf

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Re: Best tuning machines?

Post by Dofpic » Sat Nov 19, 2011 7:16 pm

According to Greg Byers he prefers Graf, then Rodgers. I owned a guitar Greg made that had the top line graf and they were almost a sensual experiance to tune. However the Sahlin and Tacchi I own have rodgers and there are most beautiful I have ever seen.
2011Fritz Ober(maple), 2015 Eric Sahlin, 2006 Greg Byers(fan)2009 Eric Monrad(maple)
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Re: Best tuning machines?

Post by Marco.Silva » Sun Nov 20, 2011 2:38 am

James Lister wrote:
msilva12000 wrote:So, for you luthiers out there what is the price of a tuner in proportion to the final price of a guitar(and I mean your cost not retail price)? That's a better question...
Just material cost, or total cost?

James
James,
Total cost. I find absurd that someone would put a pair of tuners that was 1/2 of the price of the guitar been sold! But, obviously, he was just someone trying to sell an instrument, not a builder concerned about cost/benefit like yourself would.
Regards,
Marco
1967 & 1978 Di Giorgio Autor 3 Solid Spruce & Jacaranda
1946 Del Vecchio Super Vox II -Luthier Angelo Del Vecchio

Chih-Wei Liu

Re: Best tuning machines?

Post by Chih-Wei Liu » Sun Nov 20, 2011 3:33 pm

Dennis Tolz wrote: From the design point I really like Alessi, but sadly I´m having a little problem with them on my last two guitars. The wheel seems to be stressed to much in one point and there is a lot of wear already. I think this could lead to some play in the gearing sooner or later. I really hope that it´s not a general problem with Alessi Tuners. Anyone else experiencing that problem?
I ordered a few tuning machines from Alessi several years ago and most of them have more or less the same problem like yours. Beside every gear has a "click" somewhere during the rotation. Mr. Alessi said they're normal. I'm told by a German luthier that the only Alessi he ever had was worse than Reischls and he is not going to use that Alessi nor order more Reischls.

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James Lister
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Re: Best tuning machines?

Post by James Lister » Sun Nov 20, 2011 4:20 pm

msilva12000 wrote:
James Lister wrote:
msilva12000 wrote:So, for you luthiers out there what is the price of a tuner in proportion to the final price of a guitar(and I mean your cost not retail price)? That's a better question...
Just material cost, or total cost?
James
James,
Total cost. I find absurd that someone would put a pair of tuners that was 1/2 of the price of the guitar been sold! But, obviously, he was just someone trying to sell an instrument, not a builder concerned about cost/benefit like yourself would.
That's a more difficult proportion to calculate, but it's certainly quite variable - anywhere between 6% and 22%.
msilva12000 wrote:if you were selling a $800 guitar would you put a tuner that's half the price of the guitar in it????
No.


James
James Lister, luthier, Sheffield UK

Marco.Silva
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Re: Best tuning machines?

Post by Marco.Silva » Sun Nov 20, 2011 6:11 pm

That makes sense. Sorry for the number exercise, I'm a business finance guy by profession. For me what the seller did was like putting a set of high performance tires on a wrecked car. At the end of the day, you sell the tires, and sell the car at the junker!And, the tires are worth more than the car...
So guitar building like everything else should have its material cost proportional to the final product. You build a concert guitar and you put a high quality tuner. If you mass produce guitars, then you put cheap tuners! I'm sure the expensive tuners and cheap ones should have the same cost percentage of the final product. $5 of $100 is the same as $125 of $2.5k.


I'm sure as far as quality is concerned, if you compare a Mercedes Benz and a Porsche both are great machines and very expensive. So are Alessi, Rodgers, etc...At the end of the day, I prefer a Porsche,and someone else may prefer a Mercedes.

Do they make lemons? Highly unlikely so, but I'm sure if you take a poll you find people who had problems with both car brands, and that go for the tuners too.But, in my opinion, it boils down to preference...
Regards,
Marco
1967 & 1978 Di Giorgio Autor 3 Solid Spruce & Jacaranda
1946 Del Vecchio Super Vox II -Luthier Angelo Del Vecchio

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gabasa
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Re: Best tuning machines?

Post by gabasa » Sun Nov 20, 2011 6:50 pm

Chih-Wei Liu wrote:
Dennis Tolz wrote: From the design point I really like Alessi, but sadly I´m having a little problem with them on my last two guitars. The wheel seems to be stressed to much in one point and there is a lot of wear already. I think this could lead to some play in the gearing sooner or later. I really hope that it´s not a general problem with Alessi Tuners. Anyone else experiencing that problem?
I ordered a few tuning machines from Alessi several years ago and most of them have more or less the same problem like yours. Beside every gear has a "click" somewhere during the rotation. Mr. Alessi said they're normal. I'm told by a German luthier that the only Alessi he ever had was worse than Reischls and he is not going to use that Alessi nor order more Reischls.
I'm surprised to read this. I've read nothing but praise for Alessi tuners on this board and they've been suggested as a favorite by many luthiers. All of the sudden they're horrible? Really?
I hope this isn't true, I have guitars on order with Alessis expecting to get great tuners. I could have saved a lot of money getting premium Gotohs! :(

Has anyone else experienced these "clicks", or points of high stress?

Maybe in some cases installation issues exist. His Delrin bushings are 10.05mm. I spoke to Nicolo Alessi very recently and he told me that they should not be press fit, they need a little bit of clearance. He recommended a 10.2mm drill. If a standard 10mm hole is drilled, The Delrin gets press-fit into the hole and will compress/distort.

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James Lister
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Re: Best tuning machines?

Post by James Lister » Sun Nov 20, 2011 8:06 pm

gabasa wrote: I'm surprised to read this. I've read nothing but praise for Alessi tuners on this board and they've been suggested as a favorite by many luthiers. All of the sudden they're horrible? Really?
I'm surprised too - I've never had any problems with Alessi tuners (except for him sending the wrong ones - twice). I wouldn't worry too much. If there is a problem, there shouldn't be any difficulty in getting them replaced. They have a good reputation, and I'm sure Nicolo will want to keep it that way.

James
James Lister, luthier, Sheffield UK

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gabasa
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Re: Best tuning machines?

Post by gabasa » Sun Nov 20, 2011 9:59 pm

Whew, thanks James!

Chih-Wei Liu

Re: Best tuning machines?

Post by Chih-Wei Liu » Tue Nov 22, 2011 2:46 am

The clicks were there when they were not even installed. I actually returned those machines(and paid the returning shipping) for him to eliminate some ugly nicks that were caused by improper packaging - at the first time they came without individual boxes but just wrapping plastic bubble sheet instead. They arrived with boxes later, tho. As for the premature wear marks on those new gears, like I said, he claimed its not a problem. I'm sure they'll work like any affordable machines for some years at least but I'd rather order Gotoh premium or Gilbert or Sloane again, which are a lot cheaper than Alessi's.

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Re: Best tuning machines?

Post by montana » Tue Nov 22, 2011 7:57 am

James Lister wrote:
gabasa wrote: I'm surprised to read this. I've read nothing but praise for Alessi tuners on this board and they've been suggested as a favorite by many luthiers. All of the sudden they're horrible? Really?
I'm surprised too - I've never had any problems with Alessi tuners (except for him sending the wrong ones - twice). I wouldn't worry too much. If there is a problem, there shouldn't be any difficulty in getting them replaced. They have a good reputation, and I'm sure Nicolo will want to keep it that way.

James
Ditto hes great to work with and no problems with his tuners.

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